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Post by lechat on May 15, 2021 12:06:33 GMT
Even as the resident active priest, I don't think I've enough experience to suggest too many amendments, but here goes:-
Praise during sermons. Could priests be allowed to praise characters at the front, with the result in that the other player don't have to attend, but receive the SP gain on their return?
Female companions. Maybe not as such. But I'm noticing the benefits others have from their NPC spouses, such as favours. So I'm going to suggest its only fair that priests receive similar treatment by introducing a Nun attached to their diocese? And a reroll for the nun stats each time the priest is promoted, as Nuns don't follow the priest, they'd be attached to their convent, so a little priest could end up with a decent level of favour from the attached nun, or conversely a bishop could end up with a useless one?
Finally, for now. Coltreadhead made me think. It was very common for priests to attract lucrative sinecures from nobles. But - the cottage - does that mean a step up in housing from apartment to house? Does the pries receive 4 sp - its a different parish after all. Is it a curate post? Does it require one weeks sermon in addition to the first church job, and if so, I believe historical priests just got round that by paying another priest out of their own pocket, and pocketing the difference from the sinecure, as well as the sp
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Post by huillaume on May 15, 2021 13:17:20 GMT
Praise during sermons. Could priests be allowed to praise characters at the front, with the result in that the other player don't have to attend, but receive the SP gain on their return? If this is allowed, I'd say with the condition those praises are not cummulative. It would be quite hard to see one player praised by a priest three months while at war, and at his return having 3 times the praise SPs in a single month (4 times if the priest keeps praising him)
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on May 15, 2021 17:36:02 GMT
Even as the resident active priest, I don't think I've enough experience to suggest too many amendments, but here goes:- Praise during sermons. Could priests be allowed to praise characters at the front, with the result in that the other player don't have to attend, but receive the SP gain on their return? That seems fine to me. You can actually only praise people once a season anyway, which I think answers Hullaume's concern. I think no on that one. It comes under the "different" rather than "unfair" metric for me. Clergy get SP and influence from their rank from the start (and the early clergy career is much easier to advance fast in than artists, advocates etc.) and they get SP from things like giving sermons and confessees which isn't the case for other PCs. That's an interesting idea, but I'm not currently quite sure how to implement it. Another 4 SP seems too much, maybe half for any of the extra positions plus the SP?
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Post by Jacques Bougiedure on May 15, 2021 17:58:46 GMT
My intent is to assist other players in an RP friendly manner. The position that JBO is offering (to influence his bishop to appoint GC to) is outside of the game mechanics. It does not offer any pay, SP, or influence on its own.
The 15L is a monthly gift. JBO would gift to GC a house and the attendant SP would be GC's assuming he pays the 10L for monthly upkeep. There is no influence but in an RP sense, JBO would be GC's patron and could be asked to use his influence on behalf of GC.
Since it is an RP mechanic, as opposed to a game mechanic, there is no requirement to spend a game week attending to the duties. GC could RP attending to the flock while taking a game mechanic action (attending the horse race for example)
Because it is an RP mechanic, it should not interfere with GC's progression up the clerical ladder.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on May 15, 2021 19:13:34 GMT
My intent is to assist other players in an RP friendly manner. The position that JBO is offering (to influence his bishop to appoint GC to) is outside of the game mechanics. It does not offer any pay, SP, or influence on its own. The 15L is a monthly gift. JBO would gift to GC a house and the attendant SP would be GC's assuming he pays the 10L for monthly upkeep. There is no influence but in an RP sense, JBO would be GC's patron and could be asked to use his influence on behalf of GC. Since it is an RP mechanic, as opposed to a game mechanic, there is no requirement to spend a game week attending to the duties. GC could RP attending to the flock while taking a game mechanic action (attending the horse race for example) Because it is an RP mechanic, it should not interfere with GC's progression up the clerical ladder. That's how it works with the current RP. I think Gary is proposing looking at allowing Clergy to take more than one parish, much like the new noble titles suggestions. Riffing off your idea, but ideas for the upcoming clergy rewrite (which I suggested he contribute to for obvious reasons) rather than clarification of already existing rules!
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Post by lechat on May 15, 2021 21:33:30 GMT
May I just echo Sam, and state I am just riffing here for future rewrites. I'd also ask you take into account I'm still not au fait with all the rules. That's why I'm writing here, and I value the contributions that explain, for instance, why suggestions such as Nuns are a no go, you guys have a better grasp on the entirety and impact of jostling for changes.
I'd also like to personally apologise to Coltreadhead. One of those suggestions was directly linked to a kind and appreciated RP offer, and i didn't mean to draw him into a discussion about the priesthood getting more gains. He's offering a helping hand to many of us at lower SL, that was wrong of me. Sorry.
But
Half SP for a second occupation for priests?, can i put it out that the benefactor who owns the chapel gains equal SP. My caveats would be, what if another Lord offered a third chapel. Would a weeks duty be required. There's also the quirk that if a priest has his own estate, he has to spend 300 livres to build upon receipt. Maybe that should be required of the sponsoring Lord?
Huilliame makes a fair point. But devils advocate in me says, priests were pretty vocal. A four week sermon, with an additional week? Thats still only praising once a month. The recipient would probably have to promise a pretty penny though.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on May 15, 2021 21:55:59 GMT
Half SP for a second occupation for priests?, can i put it out that the benefactor who owns the chapel gains equal SP. My caveats would be, what if another Lord offered a third chapel. Would a weeks duty be required. There's also the quirk that if a priest has his own estate, he has to spend 300 livres to build upon receipt. Maybe that should be required of the sponsoring Lord? Ah, so you're thinking of this as more like the patronage system? That might work, but in that case I'm not sure it should be continuous SP for a one off payment. Of course, there is on top of any change the possibility of ostentatious piety through alms. You don't get SP from that, but you do get half of anything given. The current rule is once a season and I think that's about right. IC, I think the argument is that you praising JBO constantly ceases to have the desired social effect! OOC: Praising monthly might be a bit unbalanced, but the real issue here is condemnations. Attack Pieces, Skullduggery etc. all have once a season limits. The rule of thumb is to allow PvP but let characters focus on other things as well. An Abbe using all their sermons to condemn a poor PC would cause them to lose 18 SP over the month without this limit in place! You don't show any sign so far of wanting to do the nasty side of the career, but it has happened before.
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Post by Jacques Bougiedure on May 16, 2021 0:58:32 GMT
No offense was given or taken so no apology is necessary. My IC post was vague but I wanted to reinforce that the offers JBO is making is a creative use of current mechanics (gifting a house, giving a monetary gift) to accomplish RP goals.
As to multiple preferments for priests, it feels a little like deriving multiple benefits in a single career, similar to a military character getting to have a commission in multiple regiments or a character having positions in multiple career paths (lawyer, doctor, and artist).
Linking it to the noble mechanic of multiple titles is interesting but aren't PCs in the church governed by the same rules (i.e. they get a second attempt if the first attempt fails)?
Garrett
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Post by huillaume on May 16, 2021 13:50:16 GMT
You can actually only praise people once a season anyway, which I think answers Hullaume's concern. To a point, to be true... Let's imagine a Canon praises Huillaume while at war, s ogiving him 4 SPs on his return. The month he returns (the first of the following season) he parises him again. He wil lreceive 8 SPs this month, and that's quite more powerful than 4 SPs each month for two consecutive ones... And I don't talk about someone spending several consecutive seasons at war, where those SPs could mount... That's why I suggested for them not to be cummulative.
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Post by lechat on May 20, 2021 14:51:49 GMT
This is just a rumination again. But following Garretts intervention on behalf of Father Gerard, I certainly now am much more in his camp regarding any rule changes, the way he has used role play shows that it can be a much more powerful tool than any attempt on my behalf to gain extra power for Priests.
Indeed. and Sam alluded to this. Certainly for a junior Priest the rise up the greasy pole seems to have been very straightforward. There's no reason Fr Gerard shouldn't gain another SL this month - that's a rise every month since he started (and a fall on changing faction). Some of the advancement may be due to the luck in having an allowance. Some is certainly due to the help from other players. But there is certainly little need for any major changes for them.
I would like to experience the dynamics of another active priest (that's a plea to Father Simon), i think that could make playing a priest much more competitive. And Fr Gerard changed class because at least three or four of the other orders than Franciscan seemed to be more advantageous in the long game.
But other than that, if i do contribute, Im very aware I have a lot of playing time to get under my belt before anyone takes what i say seriously, for such simple rules the nuances are so complex.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on May 20, 2021 15:14:45 GMT
This is just a rumination again. But following Garretts intervention on behalf of Father Gerard, I certainly now am much more in his camp regarding any rule changes, the way he has used role play shows that it can be a much more powerful tool than any attempt on my behalf to gain extra power for Priests. Indeed. and Sam alluded to this. Certainly for a junior Priest the rise up the greasy pole seems to have been very straightforward. There's no reason Fr Gerard shouldn't gain another SL this month - that's a rise every month since he started (and a fall on changing faction). Some of the advancement may be due to the luck in having an allowance. Some is certainly due to the help from other players. But there is certainly little need for any major changes for them. It's worth noting that the priest advancement scheme is essentially a pyramid. Once you get through the lower ranks, getting the higher ones requires vacancies. Compare to artistic careers (hard going in the early days and become increasingly powerful as times go on) and military careers (reasonably easy to rise in the lowest ranks, tapers off for the higher officers and then gets easier again with command positions). I mention this because it's a reasonably subtle element of Liminal that's worth bearing in mind when looking at rules changes. (Generally, I think balance isn't perfect, but is pretty good. I'm mostly looking at chrome and clarifications I think) It's a pity you missed the PRIEST WARS. They were hilarious. (Ended up with Father Lachapelle being sent on a mission for libeling a female PC by implying she was his rival priest's mistress). Obviously, the hope is that you'll get a new clergy PC either from a new player or a sadly deceased current player. As part of that, one change I think I'm definitely going to implement is allowing anyone to start as clergy, not just sons of gentlemen. That rule was originally there to make sons of gentlemen less generic and with the stat modifiers and multiple careers I don't think it's needed anymore. Although do remember that you're the current player with the most experience of being active in the clergy career.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Jul 8, 2021 13:35:16 GMT
Moving onto this next.
Big things (and feel free to suggest more)
Solidifying up how likely clergy are to get disciplined.
The promotions process.
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Post by huillaume on Jul 8, 2021 15:58:35 GMT
Just one suggestion (mixted from here and military rules) would be for the CG members to have a discount on the Church services. After all, they serve the Cardinal...
This would have few real effect (you don't use to need those services often), but could make more attractive this unit that uses to have bad press (blame Mr Dumas about this), and, IMHO, it makes quite sense form RPG POV.
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Post by lechat on Jul 9, 2021 12:45:02 GMT
Just one suggestion (mixted from here and military rules) would be for the CG members to have a discount on the Church services. After all, they serve the Cardinal... This would have few real effect (you don't use to need those services often), but could make more attractive this unit that uses to have bad press (blame Mr Dumas about this), and, IMHO, it makes quite sense form RPG POV. I'd like to echo this, and add in that GC receives double SP from CG confessions, so some sort of reciprocation would be fair. I have no idea about Paris, but I do know that in Edinburgh, the Kings Guard (Royal Archers) at the time had access to free services at their chapel in St Giles, so I'd go so far as to suggest free services, and throw in double SP for praising members of this unit. Perhaps remove the rank restrictions on regimental priest for the CG as its a personal gift from the grey eminence, and only allow such benefits from the CG regimental priest?
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Jul 9, 2021 14:04:23 GMT
They already get some reciprocation. Quite a lot in fact. (Understandably you may not be aware of this because it's not in the Church section).
So while I'm not against it in theory, I worry that adding free services makes the CG much better than any of the other Guards regiments. (And giving them double SP for being praised or free services would definitely tip it over the edge).
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