New Titles/Estates Rules ready for feedback

[Ymbert Montgomery]

Much like the military rewrite, this is bigger than a bit of tinkering so any feedback is welcome from "not sure this bit quite works" to "I hate it all, change it back".

For the former, one people may want to dig deep into is some of the numbers. As some of you will know from your returns, numbers aren't my strength. So I've gone with a more vague "does this feel about right".

If people like the new title system, suggestions for more ways to add to your MRIs are especially welcome. I don't think there's a limit there.Titles.pdf (77.03 KB)Titles.odt (29.11 KB)

[Jacques Bougiedure]

MRIs? Did autocorrect get MiDs mixed up?

[Ymbert Montgomery]

Oops, no, but it should be "MRLs".

"Mention in Royal Lists". It's kinda like MiDs but you get them lots more ways.

[Jacques Bougiedure]

Thoughts on new rules:

Chart in 14.3

* MRLs for Etiquette rolls should be at any court event, not just Royal Balls
* Getting a Battle Result of 2 should yield 1 MRL
* MRLs for promotion to Brigadier/Marshall should be for the full rank, not the brevet rank
* Getting an Etiquette rolls of 1 in a direct audience with the King is listed twice (MRL 3 and 4)
* Change “Free” to “Auto Attempt” on MRL listing
* Give negative MRL for BR 6 while commanding any unit
* Give negative MRL for BR 5 while commanding Brigade or higher

14.4 Should state that after a title attempt, the MRL counter is reset to zero. Consider retaining excess MRL (i.e. player has 15 MRL when making a title attempt to Comte, the player spends 13 MRL for the roll and retains 2 MRL)

14.7 should state whether the SP for title and coat of arts is temporary or permanent.

Can characters use MRLs to raise the title of a purchased estate? Perhaps a standing order?

15.1 replace “modern amount” with “moderate amount”

15.2 replace “If a character is having a Title raised to the next level” with “If a character is receiving the next higher title”

15.3 It looks possible that a character with an estate could roll a smaller expansion, i.e. a Baron with a small mansion could roll a house or fine house when titled as Viscomte. What is the effect in this case? What happens if the size of the estate is the same as previously held?

15.14 and higher should be renumbered (i.e. 15.14 should be 15.4)

15.15 states revenues calculated seasonally but 15.18 states ability rolls are made monthly and income is received monthly. Is the seasonally calculated rate received monthly or is the seasonal rate spread across the three months of the season?

15.18 suggest combining 15.16 and 15.18 as both talk specifically about the skill roll. In not, put 15.18 between 15.15 and 15.16

15.19 do Land Agents give the +2 SL for being in the same province as the estate? (per 15.17)

15.21 is a bit confusing. Suggest stating that a character can purchase any title that they have sufficient SL for. Is cost = Province Base Revenue * Estate Size * Title Rank?

Swap 15.22 and 15.21 Cost paragraph should come after

15.23 consider a +1 modifier to finding a buyer for each -20% off of the sale price. A 4,500 Livres sale price for the Marquis in Gascony (15%) will virtually guarantee a buyer (2+).

Should there be a rule for inheriting a wife’s estate? i.e. if no male heir of legal age the estate falls to the husband.

15.28 states “So the first successful…than[sic] a Baron”. This seems at odds with the roll and table in 15.3

15.29 Pensions for nobles were removed. Should the 25 Cr a month for clergymen be eliminated as well?

[huillaume]

About titles:

just to see if I understood well, let’s use Huillaume’s current situation as example:

As Brigade Commander, let’s imagine (as optimist as it can be) he achieves a BR of 1 (against a 4 of the Frontier Commander), 1 Mid and 1 medal.

He would so have:

• For his BR: 3
• For BR 3 better than his superior: 1
• For MiD: 1
• For medal: 1

So a total of 6 MRLs, and no title roll. This, of course, compares poorly against former system, where he would have had 2 rolls with a maximum of 1 title (In this specific case, not saying In general, nor saying this is good or bad)…

Suggestions:

• Give some (probably 2-3, as other “minor” appointments and less than a Minister)for being named CPS (I find quite illogical this position does not give any)
• For medals: give as many MRLs as SP/month the medal gives (so 1-4) instead of a plain 1. It’s not the same to be given a Croix de la Citée (not hat Huillaume is not proud about his) than a Legion d’Honneur

[Ymbert Montgomery]

May 6, 2021 10:43:04 GMT huillaume said:

So a total of 6 MRLs, and no title roll. This, of course, compares poorly against former system, where he would have had 2 rolls with a maximum of 1 title (In this specific case, not saying In general, nor saying this is good or bad)…

Yes and no I think.

Fewer rolls, but a much higher chance of a result from them.

The big differences are:

The possibility of using influence or money.

The second roll for a lesser title if the first one fails.

The +1 for each previous failed attempt.

With those, I think you're still at least as likely to get titles overall.

Suggestions:

• Give some (probably 2-3, as other “minor” appointments and less than a Minister)for being named CPS (I find quite illogical this position does not give any)

It's actually down already as 1, but I'm not against raising it to 2.

[li]For medals: give as many MRLs as SP/month the medal gives (so 1-4) instead of a plain 1. It’s not the same to be given a Croix de la Citée (not hat Huillaume is not proud about his) than a Legion d’Honneur

[/li][/ul][/quote]

I think that's a bit strong, but I'll definitely look at giving more for the higher medals.

Thanks!

[/quote]

[huillaume]

Those advantanges are argueable, depending on the situation: with current SL (21, verdsus 8-9 needed to become a visount or count ,depending on if Deols or Béare is raised, means 12-13 over, so a +4), Huillaume would only fail a title roll with an 1 (I guess that's autofail).

To be clear, I'm not against it, Huillaume is (as it seems usual) a unusual case, due to his very high SL and the fact he has avoided several title rolls due to haveing his state mortgaged. I guess this system may work too.

Another problem I see is for Merchant players, as I have the feeling they are more likely to have a title roll (e.g. if they own a racehorse), and so forcing them out of their careers...

[Jacques Bougiedure]

The second roll for a lesser title if the first one fails.

Rule 14.6 left me a little fuzzy on this.  Perhaps reword it as:

"14.6  If the roll to to promote to the next higher title fails, the character gets a second attempt for an additional title of equal or lower noble rank (determined randomly).  If successful, the character receives an additional estate to go along with the additional title, gaining the SPs as normal."

How does Rule 14.6 apply in the case, like Huillame, where the character already has additional titles?  For example, if HLB fails the rolls to promote from Viscomte to Comte, does he get a chance to promote from Baron to Viscomte for his second title?  If yes and HLB fails the promotion from Baron to Viscomte, does he get a chance (a third attempt at this point) for a third title? 

I think there should be no cap on the number of titles a character can hold.

I would suggest that any additional titles gained through 14.6 automatically start as Chevalier.  Having the chance as a Duc to get a second Duc title seems a little to OP to me.

[Renald De La Azur]

Do we all start at 0?

[huillaume]

I guess this december will still be with old rules. Right?

[Ymbert Montgomery]

To answer the quick questions first!

May 6, 2021 16:37:08 GMT Renald De La Azur said:

Do we all start at 0?

No, I'll be working out any MRIs earnt since your last title if this is implemented.

I guess this december will still be with old rules. Right?

Correct and possibly longer than that. If we bring this in it's a big enough change I want it as right as possible first.

[Ymbert Montgomery]

May 6, 2021 2:37:36 GMT Jacques Bougiedure said:

Thoughts on new rules:

Chart in 14.3

* MRLs for Etiquette rolls should be at any court event, not just Royal Balls
* Getting a Battle Result of 2 should yield 1 MRL

Agree to both of those.

* MRLs for promotion to Brigadier/Marshall should be for the full rank, not the brevet rank

Actually, I think there's an argument for giving it both times, as it's a one off event.

* Getting an Etiquette rolls of 1 in a direct audience with the King is listed twice (MRL 3 and 4)

I think that should probably be 4, impressing the King is always a good thing!

* Change “Free” to “Auto Attempt” on MRL listing
* Give negative MRL for BR 6 while commanding any unit
* Give negative MRL for BR 5 while commanding Brigade or higher

Agree.

14.4 Should state that after a title attempt, the MRL counter is reset to zero. Consider retaining excess MRL (i.e. player has 15 MRL when making a title attempt to Comte, the player spends 13 MRL for the roll and retains 2 MRL)

I like that idea. The original I took the idea from had excess acting as a bonus to the roll but I think that's too strong!

14.7 should state whether the SP for title and coat of arts is temporary or permanent.

That should be temporary; it's mostly a little "flavour" SP.

Can characters use MRLs to raise the title of a purchased estate? Perhaps a standing order?

That could do with being clearer. The idea is that all rolls are done on the character's highest title, even if purchased.

15.3 It looks possible that a character with an estate could roll a smaller expansion, i.e. a Baron with a small mansion could roll a house or fine house when titled as Viscomte. What is the effect in this case? What happens if the size of the estate is the same as previously held?

In that case, I think they get the higher of the two. (In that case, their new lands aren't enough to add to their estate.

15.15 states revenues calculated seasonally but 15.18 states ability rolls are made monthly and income is received monthly. Is the seasonally calculated rate received monthly or is the seasonal rate spread across the three months of the season?

The roll is made at the start of the season and that amount is received each month. This is much higher than pensions, but that helps balance quite how much things like Court cost at higher levels!

15.19 do Land Agents give the +2 SL for being in the same province as the estate? (per 15.17)

Yes, they do, unless there are so many estates they can't travel to each of them in the first month.

Is cost = Province Base Revenue * Estate Size * Title Rank?

Province Base Revenue * Estate Size * Title Rank * 500

15.23 consider a +1 modifier to finding a buyer for each -20% off of the sale price. A 4,500 Livres sale price for the Marquis in Gascony (15%) will virtually guarantee a buyer (2+).

That works for me, although in this case I think only PCs can offer discounts. No use of influence to persuade Ducs to give you their estates for half price!

Should there be a rule for inheriting a wife’s estate? i.e. if no male heir of legal age the estate falls to the husband.

That sounds fair and would be the case generally; it would take eight years of real life to get any children born in December to 16!

How do people think that should work for female PCs? Would the husband's estate go to them or another male relative if no children?

15.29 Pensions for nobles were removed. Should the 25 Cr a month for clergymen be eliminated as well?

Yes.

[Ymbert Montgomery]

May 6, 2021 13:24:08 GMT huillaume said:

Those advantanges are argueable, depending on the situation: with current SL (21, verdsus 8-9 needed to become a visount or count ,depending on if Deols or Béare is raised, means 12-13 over, so a +4), Huillaume would only fail a title roll with an 1 (I guess that's autofail).

To be clear, I'm not against it, Huillaume is (as it seems usual) a unusual case, due to his very high SL and the fact he has avoided several title rolls due to haveing his state mortgaged. I guess this system may work too.

Hah, yeah, Hulluame is unusual generally to the point of being impossible to really take into account a lot of the time.

I think it's pretty unlikely we'll ever see a "PC inherits father's mortgaged estate the month they're due to pay off the mortgage on their own title" situation!

Another problem I see is for Merchant players, as I have the feeling they are more likely to have a title roll (e.g. if they own a racehorse), and so forcing them out of their careers...

I see your concern there, but I think it's generally unlikely based on our merchant so far.

[Jacques Bougiedure]

How do people think that should work for female PCs? Would the husband's estate go to them or another male relative if no children?

I would think that the reason the female (PC or NPC) has an estate is because no legitimate male heir is alive to take the title.  If there were, even a male child, the male would have precedence over all the females.  It makes me sound like an oinker but I am not certain that females in 17th Century France could inherit estates.  I think that estates where the male line died out went back to the king.  

The question is really more about if HLB is able to do away with his wife like he did with his elder brother and father (wink, wink) what happens to the female NPC's Baronial estate?

Garrett

[Jacques Bougiedure]

I think that Louis XIII should award HLB the title Viscomte of the Usually Unusual