Patronage & Art

[Ymbert Montgomery]

These are mostly clarifications and fleshing out. Thanks to Enoch52 for his help with these!

• Patronage and Working on Commission are two different things. The former requires a titled patron, the latter for anyone willing to pay.

[li]The commissioner of a piece of art is whoever buys or otherwise owns it after it's finished. Both the creator and the commisioner get SP equal to the work's value when it's displayed. (A piece may only be displayed for SP once.
[/li]
[li]An artist may display their own work, but they only gain the SP for creating it, not double!
[/li]

• The quality of the final work is an average of all the monthly results, rounded down to the nearest whole number.
  
• An artist will always know the quality of his own work. This allows you to create a piece and then sell it or even auction it off.
  
• Any titled Noble is a suitable patron for an untitled character, regardless of birth

• Finding a patron is a weekly action that needs annoucing on the forum.  It can only be attempted once a month.  (This restriction is mostly so people can spend Influence).
  
• A NPC noble will have the minimum SL required for their title.  If is possible to attempt to get a specific appointment as your Patron (e.g. the Minister of Justice) but this means any influence used will have a higher requirement.
  
• Any artwork used to become eligible for patronage must have taken at least a month.  (I hope this doesn't feel unfair! It's balancing it with the other similar ways of gaining patronage. In fact it's still a bit easier - Theatre productions require money and academic treatises have a chance of being rejected.)
  
• For the purposes of patronage, any work that takes a month and a half or more to produce is considered a "long work".
  
• Each season a NPC patron will request a piece (suitable to the protege's speciality) that takes 2-12 weeks to produce.

• A NPC Patron will only end the patronage in extreme circumstances including the protege being disgraced, convicted of a serious crime or if persuaded to by anothe PC (this requires a roll of 7+ and must be announced publically).
  

[Deleted]

So if Raoul wanted to commission a book of poetry about horses, how would he go about pricing such a commision?

[Ymbert Montgomery]

Start by deciding how many weeks you want the work to take.

A PC can charge what they want, but you can use NPC artists as a guide to what you should be paying.

A NPC artist will charge 2 Livres, per Skill Level, per Week. They also won't take pieces for less than four weeks.

No NPCs above Artistic Ability 6 are possible. (PCs can hit 10 with practice).

PC artists have more flexibility on this. They can accept shorter commissions. They can also create a piece and then sell it to you once it's done (and you know how many SP it's worth). Or even auction it off to the highest bidder.

[huillaume]

Some questions about Artists (numbered to ease answers):

17.31 The final SPs gained by the commission is influenced by a monthly Artistic Ability check. The skill check adds or subtracts from the final SP for the work. If the artist conducts the work in an uninterrupted fashion, they roll their skill check as if they were one skill level higher than their actual level. This means for longer works, dedicating the entire month, or for works of less than a month duration, completing the work in consecutive weeks. Artists will not reveal the progress of their work as a work that is doing well can be botched later and vice versa.

Let's imagine a character wants to spend two weeks painting a protrait of his paramour , so goes to her house for her to pose for the painting:

1. Can he use the last week of a month and the first of the next one, and still be counted as consecutive weeks?
2. Could those months also be counted as staying with her paramour for femenine company?
3. While the effets to SP won due to effect are clear, what is the effect to price¹?
   

Note 1: I understand the "standard" price of an artwork would be the cost for the artist doing it, so AA X #of weeks x 2 livres

[huillaume]

Possible errata in rules about artists:

17.36 Whenever an AA check is made, if the SCR (Skill Check Result, from the table) is 1or 2, the character gains .25 to his AA.

In the subsequent table, only a result of 1 is told to improve the AA. As this "or 2" is in red, so i guess an update, I guess you forgot to updeate the table too...

[huillaume]

Another question:

As artists rules are, I understand an artist can make a work (let’s say a painting) and just keep it without showing it, not earning any SP, Then, when he has several, he could make an exposition of his paintings and ne all the SP in a batch (a good way to collect enough of them to raise himself a SL, if he‘s close enough), and even sell them and netting also the money. Is this right?


Now some more suggestions:

Allow the Artists to keep some SP (let’s say 1/4 to 1/5, rounded down) of the SP due to his works as permanent when a work is Success Level 1 (as if it was an old MiD). This will put the Artist a little more on the level of soldiers, as they can earn permanent SPs as military can.

Likewise, should anyone buy this work, allow him/her also those same permanent SPs.

e.g for all the above; Huillaume, AA 6, spends 3 consecutive months working on a painting, with a Result of 2 (wo worth 4 SPs). He keeps it, and then spends 3 more in another one , now with a result 1, so worth 5 SPs. After having 5 such works (SPs 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, those last two being Result level 1), he asks a friend to host an exposition for them, so both earning 21 SPs this month (instead of spreading those SPs along several months, where they would probably have less effect).

At the exposition, he sells them all, each worth 36 crowns (3 weeks x AA6 x 2), so netting a fine sum this month…

After that, as 2 of them were Success level 1, He will keep 2 permanent SPs for them, while the owners of those paintings will also net 1 permanent SP each for ownership…

Literature:

Most rules about artworks seem to be mostly applicable to unique ones (paintings, sculptures et al), but an artwork may also be a book (be it a novel, a poetry one or a theater script). Of course, this is quite different in how they affect (owning them is not the same as owning a painting).

If the Artist specifies this, the SPs and livres earned will depend on it success. The better its result, the longer and better it will keep selling. They don’t need to be shown at the club.

• Result 1-2: SPs won for 3 months, money is AA x weeks per month, and half (rounded down) this for 1-3 months more
• Result 3-4: SPs won for 1 month, and half for the next one. Money is AA x weeks first month, half this next one.
• Result 5-6: SPs won for 1 month. Money is half AA x weeks this month only.
  

The permanent SPs (as above) are kept for the Artist, but (of course) not for the owner.

e.g.; Huillaume spends 4 weeks to write a chivalry novel. He attains a result of 2 as success. He then will, upon publishing it, receive 5 SP (4 weeks +1 per Success 2) and 24 crowns (4 weeks x AA6) for 3 months, and 2 SP and 12 crowns for 1-3 months after that. Past this period, the sales are sporadic enough as not to be worth counting them.

Should he had achieved a result of 1, he would have earned 6 SP (4 weeks +2 per Success 1) for the first 3 months, 3 for the next 1-3, and 1 permanent one, as the work would be Success Level 1.

Note:

In all cases, any money numbers might be affected (as asked by myself 2 posts above) by success

[Ymbert Montgomery]

Sept 4, 2019 10:20:06 GMT huillaume said:

In the subsequent table, only a result of 1 is told to improve the AA. As this "or 2" is in red, so i guess an update, I guess you forgot to updeate the table too.

Correct!

Another question:

As artists rules are, I understand an artist can make a work (let’s say a painting) and just keep it without showing it, not earning any SP, Then, when he has several, he could make an exposition of his paintings and ne all the SP in a batch (a good way to collect enough of them to raise himself a SL, if he‘s close enough), and even sell them and netting also the money. Is this right?

Yes that's right and very deliberate. It's a balancing mechanism. Artists start off very slowly and have to spend weeks creating rather than gaining SP. But they can "bank" it and use it all at once in a way other characters can't.

Now some more suggestions:

Allow the Artists to keep some SP (let’s say 1/4 to 1/5, rounded down) of the SP due to his works as permanent when a work is Success Level 1 (as if it was an old MiD). This will put the Artist a little more on the level of soldiers, as they can earn permanent SPs as military can.

Likewise, should anyone buy this work, allow him/her also those same permanent SPs.

e.g for all the above; Huillaume, AA 6, spends 3 consecutive months working on a painting, with a Result of 2 (wo worth 4 SPs). He keeps it, and then spends 3 more in another one , now with a result 1, so worth 5 SPs. After having 5 such works (SPs 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, those last two being Result level 1), he asks a friend to host an exposition for them, so both earning 21 SPs this month (instead of spreading those SPs along several months, where they would probably have less effect).

At the exposition, he sells them all, each worth 36 crowns (3 weeks x AA6 x 2), so netting a fine sum this month…

After that, as 2 of them were Success level 1, He will keep 2 permanent SPs for them, while the owners of those paintings will also net 1 permanent SP each for ownership…

I'm cautious about this in terms of long term balance. Especially as artists can't die which makes it much less risky than soldiers!.

Literature:

Most rules about artworks seem to be mostly applicable to unique ones (paintings, sculptures et al), but an artwork may also be a book (be it a novel, a poetry one or a theater script). Of course, this is quite different in how they affect (owning them is not the same as owning a painting).

If the Artist specifies this, the SPs and livres earned will depend on it success. The better its result, the longer and better it will keep selling. They don’t need to be shown at the club.

• Result 1-2: SPs won for 3 months, money is AA x weeks per month, and half (rounded down) this for 1-3 months more
• Result 3-4: SPs won for 1 month, and half for the next one. Money is AA x weeks first month, half this next one.
• Result 5-6: SPs won for 1 month. Money is half AA x weeks this month only.
  

The permanent SPs (as above) are kept for the Artist, but (of course) not for the owner.

e.g.; Huillaume spends 4 weeks to write a chivalry novel. He attains a result of 2 as success. He then will, upon publishing it, receive 5 SP (4 weeks +1 per Success 2) and 24 crowns (4 weeks x AA6) for 3 months, and 2 SP and 12 crowns for 1-3 months after that. Past this period, the sales are sporadic enough as not to be worth counting them.

Should he had achieved a result of 1, he would have earned 6 SP (4 weeks +2 per Success 1) for the first 3 months, 3 for the next 1-3, and 1 permanent one, as the work would be Success Level 1.

Note:

In all cases, any money numbers might be affected (as asked by myself 2 posts above) by success

Interested to know what people think about Huillaume's idea? Do you think it's worth having different rules for literature or would you rather keep it simple as a RP thing?

[Deleted]

Keep it simple. The rules do not cover the cost of the material used (I think), so paper is cheeper than paints and that is cheaper than stone.

[huillaume]

Sept 9, 2019 17:37:48 GMT Ymbert Montgomery said:

Now some more suggestions:

Allow the Artists to keep some SP (let’s say 1/4 to 1/5, rounded down) of the SP due to his works as permanent when a work is Success Level 1 (as if it was an old MiD). This will put the Artist a little more on the level of soldiers, as they can earn permanent SPs as military can.

Likewise, should anyone buy this work, allow him/her also those same permanent SPs.

e.g for all the above; Huillaume, AA 6, spends 3 consecutive months working on a painting, with a Result of 2 (wo worth 4 SPs). He keeps it, and then spends 3 more in another one , now with a result 1, so worth 5 SPs. After having 5 such works (SPs 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, those last two being Result level 1), he asks a friend to host an exposition for them, so both earning 21 SPs this month (instead of spreading those SPs along several months, where they would probably have less effect).

At the exposition, he sells them all, each worth 36 crowns (3 weeks x AA6 x 2), so netting a fine sum this month…

After that, as 2 of them were Success level 1, He will keep 2 permanent SPs for them, while the owners of those paintings will also net 1 permanent SP each for ownership…

I'm cautious about this in terms of long term balance. Especially as artists can't die which makes it much less risky than soldiers!.    

I must admit that's a good argument, but see that, if the SPs are divided by 5, any such work would need at least 3 weeks to give an SP (and roll a result of 1), and he has to keep its SPs while producing it, while a soldier has not to care about SPs while receiving MiDs, and any MiD, regardless if it gives him 1 SP or 6) will give him 1 permanent SP, even when he retires from the Army (if he ever does)...

[Yves Eau]

I have not read the artist rules, so may have missed something here, but my two penn'orth:

Giving an artist a permanent 1SP (like an old MID ) for a particularly impressive piece does not seem terrible, but I would keep it that simple, not divisors and rounding. Maybe a cap related to SL, so it cannot get out of hand.

I don't like the idea of giving the owner permanent SPs; I feel it could benefit rich characters too much, for little effort.

If literature offered SPs and money for several months, what would be the reason for painting?

[huillaume]

Sept 9, 2019 19:12:43 GMT Yves Eau said:

I have not read the artist rules, so may have missed something here, but my two penn'orth:

Giving an artist a permanent 1SP (like an old MID ) for a particularly impressive piece does not seem terrible, but I would keep it that simple, not divisors and rounding. Maybe a cap related to SL, so it cannot get out of hand.

I don't like the idea of giving the owner permanent SPs; I feel it could benefit rich characters too much, for little effort.

Of course it could be caped, or restircted somewhat, b ut owing art uniques is a wa to win status, both, now and then. Rich people may easily win SPs? well, that's not inconsistent with the game...

If literature offered SPs and money for several months, what would be the reason for painting?

Pending the answer to my former questions, the reason for paintig is mainly it gives more money, and an expositoin of various painings (or sculptures) can net you a fine amount of SPs and money in a single turn, while writtings are not expected to be published at once (something I forgot to tell about, BTW).

If my assumptions in former post are right, with a painting you net AA x weeks x 2 with a paitning (possible effects of result also pending to e answered). With a book, standard money (result 3-4) is AA x weeks X 1.5, so losing 25% of money (and not having all of it aat once).

See also that if painings ownership give SPs (be them permanent, temporary or whatever) those uniques could even reach higher prices...

[Ymbert Montgomery]

I'm afraid some of these clarifications are about "ease of bookkeeping" as much as "realism".

Sept 2, 2019 15:06:55 GMT huillaume said:

1. Can he use the last week of a month and the first of the next one, and still be counted as consecutive weeks?

No, they need to be in the same month. Single week pieces also don't get a bonus.

[Could those months also be counted as staying with her paramour for femenine company?

Yes, that seems fair. But only with your own paramour, not someone else's! Also note that most patrons will not accept that "a painting of my mistress" is an acceptable piece of art.

While the effets to SP won due to effect are clear, what is the effect to price¹?

That bonus is not available to NPC artists, so it's up to the players to negotiate a price.

[huillaume]

Sept 12, 2019 15:08:15 GMT Ymbert Montgomery said:

I'm afraid some of these clarifications are about "ease of bookkeeping" as much as "realism".

Sept 2, 2019 15:06:55 GMT huillaume said:

1. Can he use the last week of a month and the first of the next one, and still be counted as consecutive weeks?

No, they need to be in the same month. Single week pieces also don't get a bonus.

I guess works can take more than one month, and this bonus is not lost with the month change, but then, what if one uses the two last weeks on a month and the first one )or two) in the next one for a 3-4 weeks work?

While the effets to SP won due to effect are clear, what is the effect to price1?

That bonus is not available to NPC artists, so it's up to the players to negotiate a price.

I meant, can one sell his works "on the open" (to NPCs) if acting as his own patron, instead of negotiating with other PCs?

If so, what would the expected price be (I guess more or less the same than comissioning it), and what effect Result would have on it?

[Ymbert Montgomery]

Sept 12, 2019 15:56:59 GMT huillaume said:

I guess works can take more than one month, and this bonus is not lost with the month change, but then, what if one uses the two last weeks on a month and the first one )or two) in the next one for a 3-4 weeks work?

They wouldn't get the bonus. From the rules:

If the artist conducts the work in an uninterrupted fashion, they roll their skill check as if they were one skill level higher than their actual level. This means for longer works, dedicating the entire month, or for works of less than a month duration, completing the work in consecutive weeks.

I meant, can one sell his works "on the open" (to NPCs) if acting as his own patron, instead of negotiating with other PCs?

If so, what would the expected price be (I guess more or less the same than comissioning it), and what effect Result would have on it?

That one does probably need a rule.

You need to get an NPC to agree to commission you beforehand. This is a pre monthly action, taking a roll of 5-6.

NPCs will be willing to commission you for between 1-3 months work. They pay the same as the NPC rate - 2 Livres per skill level per week.
You'll get the SP on completion and the result level doesn't affect your pay.

For more beneficial relationships with NPCs you need a patron.

(This is deliberately set up to be less beneficial than working with other players is likely to be. I want to encourage people to interact with other players as much as possible).

[huillaume]

Yes, that is fine for professional Artists ,but I was thinking more in "amateur" or "part-time" ones.

As an Artist can make an incursion in the Military by joining the Frontier Regiments, a Military man can  have a few incursions in the Art world by making some ocasional works, and even make an exposition and selling them.

While I agree interaction with other palyers must be encouraged, in those conditions another PC has little to gain (unless they agree on a "one-time" patronage as the would be patron hosts the exposition), and little money is to be made on it if only PCs can buy the works...