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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Sept 12, 2019 17:04:43 GMT
Yes, that is fine for professional Artists ,but I was thinking more in "amateur" or "part-time" ones. As an Artist can make an incursion in the Military by joining the Frontier Regiments, a Military man can have a few incursions in the Art world by making some ocasional works, and even make an exposition and selling them. While I agree interaction with other palyers must be encouraged, in those conditions another PC has little to gain (unless they agree on a "one-time" patronage as the would be patron hosts the exposition), and little money is to be made on it if only PCs can buy the works...
You may want to ask Captain Jardin if he agrees that nothing is to be gained by another PC. I believe he gained 8 SP from backing that volume of poetry. While there's not a hard and fast value for that kind of thing, I certainly think it's worth richer PCs considering it.
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Post by enoch52 on Sept 12, 2019 17:35:57 GMT
Commissioning art is certainly something for rich characters, but I don't think that's unreasonable. Certainly the rate of cost-to-SPs for commissioning art from NPCs is favorable to the rate for, say, church donations or conspicuous consumption. Assuming a similar rate for PCs, this can be a great way to convert ready coin into status--and you can do it all at once, if you want.
I know that I didn't find it difficult to find someone interested.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Sept 12, 2019 18:01:09 GMT
Commissioning art is certainly something for rich characters, but I don't think that's unreasonable. Certainly the rate of cost-to-SPs for commissioning art from NPCs is favorable to the rate for, say, church donations or conspicuous consumption. Assuming a similar rate for PCs, this can be a great way to convert ready coin into status--and you can do it all at once, if you want. I know that I didn't find it difficult to find someone interested. I agree with this totally. It's also why I've definitely decided against introducing MiD type things for artists. For artist PCs, it takes time to get going (and money and status may be precarious until they do) but it's very powerful once they get going. And add the Patron rules to that - getting paid and getting automatic toadying SPs. To use another datapoint, Piquet got 10 SP from art alone (including his work on decor), even without getting the SP from Aurele's. And that was for short notice pieces that people spent 2 or less weeks on before the party. With pre planning an art exhibition is probably the surest way in the game to go up a SL. So I think this is something where the market will work itself out. Piquet got a remarkably good deal with everyone providing their art for free, even paying their own carousing costs. That's something I think will start changing as people get more familiar with quite how good art can be. In fact, my only real concern with the rules at the moment is if it's too easy to get art off NPCs instead. I'm going to leave that one and see how it goes in play for now.
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Post by enoch52 on Sept 12, 2019 18:27:44 GMT
I will say that, given that NPC prices will tend to set the prices PCs can charge, at least at the AA levels NPCs can obtain, it tends to limit the income from producing and selling art without a patron. But I imagine that is as intended (or at least a happy consequence). If you want to become rich and powerful as an artist, you probably need a patron.
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Post by Alain Andre Durant on Sept 15, 2019 22:29:07 GMT
These are mostly clarifications and fleshing out. Thanks to Enoch52 for his help with these! - Patronage and Working on Commission are two different things. The former requires a titled patron, the latter for anyone willing to pay.
[li]The commissioner of a piece of art is whoever buys or otherwise owns it after it's finished. Both the creator and the commisioner get SP equal to the work's value when it's displayed. (A piece may only be displayed for SP once. I think that requiring a title to be a patron of art is unnecessary. It should only require money. Perhaps changing it to a higher SL?
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Post by Alain Andre Durant on Sept 15, 2019 22:36:44 GMT
Some questions about Artists (numbered to ease answers):
Let's imagine a character wants to spend two weeks painting a protrait of his paramour , so goes to her house for her to pose for the painting:
- Can he use the last week of a month and the first of the next one, and still be counted as consecutive weeks?
- Could those months also be counted as staying with her paramour for femenine company?
- While the effets to SP won due to effect are clear, what is the effect to price1?
Note 1: I understand the "standard" price of an artwork would be the cost for the artist doing it, so AA X #of weeks x 2 livres
I don't think artwork should require consecutive weeks. I think not delivering on a commissioned or patroned work and the consequences thereof (wasted time not doing something else) should be the penalty. I would say that those visits would indeed count as FC,but would have to be ordered. I would also suggest that liaisons with other peoples lovers could happen this way.
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Post by Alain Andre Durant on Sept 15, 2019 22:40:49 GMT
- Finding a patron is a weekly action that needs annoucing on the forum. It can only be attempted once a month. (This restriction is mostly so people can spend Influence).
- Each season a NPC patron will request a piece (suitable to the protege's speciality) that takes 2-12 weeks to produce.
- A NPC Patron will only end the patronage in extreme circumstances including the protege being disgraced, convicted of a serious crime or if persuaded to by anothe PC (this requires a roll of 7+ and must be announced publically).
Perhaps specifically stating patronage should be limited to a single work for each patron. The same patron can be sought for subsequent works, but acceptance is always for a single piece of work.
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Post by enoch52 on Sept 16, 2019 0:51:55 GMT
That would pretty much quash artist as a career path, as you'll be spending alternate months seeking patrons (at best) rather than creating art.
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Post by Alain Andre Durant on Sept 16, 2019 1:31:30 GMT
That would pretty much quash artist as a career path, as you'll be spending alternate months seeking patrons (at best) rather than creating art. That would be for NPCs. PCs could do whatever was wished for. Only one week a month can be used for seeking a patron, so it does not truly hamper an artist any more than the many weeks a Student of Theology must devote or a private or subatern must spend in regimental duty.
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Post by enoch52 on Sept 16, 2019 1:43:18 GMT
True--but you won't get a commission without a patron, so in month 1 you can search for a patron, who would (potentially) give you a commission with the turn results, which means that while you're only using one week seeking a patron, you're not doing commissions that month.
We already have rules in place that cover the situation you describe anyway--commissioning art.
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Post by gaston on Sept 16, 2019 6:01:15 GMT
Perhaps specifically stating patronage should be limited to a single work for each patron. The same patron can be sought for subsequent works, but acceptance is always for a single piece of work. That's how commissions work - not Patronage. Histrorically, Great Patrons nurtured and developed artists throughout their careers - and would not wish to encourage them to find alternative Patrons when 'they had done all the work'..
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Post by Alain Andre Durant on Sept 16, 2019 8:22:06 GMT
Perhaps specifically stating patronage should be limited to a single work for each patron. The same patron can be sought for subsequent works, but acceptance is always for a single piece of work. That's how commissions work - not Patronage. Histrorically, Great Patrons nurtured and developed artists throughout their careers - and would not wish to encourage them to find alternative Patrons when 'they had done all the work'.. True. Perhaps a closer look, make the distinction between a commissioned work and patronage more clear and deliberate. Certainly, an artist could have a patron that paid for their lodging and food and other stuff, basically their monthly maintenances, and as a result received SP accordingly. That same artist could take commissions outside of the patronage without a problem. So, contrary to my previous suggestion and in alignment with enoch's conclusion, once a patron is established, they are sticky unless something happens to change the relationship.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Sept 16, 2019 10:17:09 GMT
I don't think artwork should require consecutive weeks. I think not delivering on a commissioned or patroned work and the consequences thereof (wasted time not doing something else) should be the penalty. Just as a quick note, artwork doesn't necessarily require consecutive weeks. Doing so just gives you a bonus to the end result. A few other thoughts. Making it a SL requirement rather than a titled requirement could actually make finding patronage harder, especially at higher SLers. Because it's relatively easy to make the roll I suspect most PC artists would go for a titled patron and the extra SP involved anyway.
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