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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 1, 2021 13:27:42 GMT
This is a small one, but feedback is welcome.
I'm thinking of maybe changing the cost of drinks at clubs (per person) to a fixed cost rather than per SL.
So for Red Phillips it would be 5L but at the Fleur de Lys it would be 30L.
What do people think?
Financially it's likely to balance out for people; the slightly higher costs for PCs are going to be offset by the fact most mistresses will cost less to take to clubs.
The main reason for this is straightforward; it allows a much simpler calculation for parties!
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Post by huillaume on Feb 1, 2021 13:31:51 GMT
This is a small one, but feedback is welcome. I'm thinking of maybe changing the cost of drinks at clubs (per person) to a fixed cost rather than per SL. So for Red Phillips it would be 5L but at the Fleur de Lys it would be 30L. What do people think? Financially it's likely to balance out for people; the slightly higher costs for PCs are going to be offset by the fact most mistresses will cost less to take to clubs. The main reason for this is straightforward; it allows a much simpler calculation for parties! Not against it (though Huillaume's economy will be harder pressed). Just one question: what about private parites at home (e.g. if Huillaume hosts a ball at his mansion)? |
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 1, 2021 13:48:00 GMT
Not against it (though Huillaume's exonomy wil lbe harder pressed). Yes, it's true to say that people at your social level would be disadvantaged although an extra 10L per person pales in comparison compared to your other expenses. I doubt you'd go for it because of SP, but it's worth noting this would give high SL characters wanting to save money the option of going for a lower status club. At the extreme, if you and the Baroness chose to join Red Phillips instead you'd be saving 30L per visit! If I put this in I'd be looking at one of two options. Either have a drinks cost (a bit cheaper than clubs because you aren't selling commerically). Or look at some TPT rules about "dinner parties" which might be an interesting way of distingushing house parties and club parties more. |
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Post by Jacques Bougiedure on Feb 1, 2021 16:38:33 GMT
I assume that toadying and roistering would be based on the fixed price as well.
I am generally against this idea as it de-links carousing cost from character SL but I would want to see the proposed price list for all clubs (30L for FdL and 5L for RP doesn't make for a smooth scale at the intervening clubs).
It could make the "specialty clubs" like the Horse Guards more attractive.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 1, 2021 18:09:18 GMT
Yeah, it would definitely de-link carousing costs from SL, which people may not be keen on. I'm not at all wedded to this particular idea; it's just being thrown out there to see if people like the sound of it.
The proposed (provisional) list:
Red Phillips - 5
Lady's Slipper - 10
Frog & Peach -5
Blue Gables - 10
Horse Guards - 10
Hunters - 15
Regency - 15
Rose & Crown -20
Bothwells - 20
Fleur de Lys -25
As touched on, if this was implemented I'd be looking at decoupling house "dinner parties" from this entirely and probably look at allowing balls in houses as well.
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Post by Alain Andre Durant on Feb 2, 2021 0:18:58 GMT
It makes sense. Finer establishments have higher prices, and better fare.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 2, 2021 1:10:07 GMT
If this was implemented, carousing at the Bawdyhouse only costs 2L (on the grounds that the drink is awful quality) but no bonus SP can be gained for Roistering and no drunkeness roll is made (because nobody cares if you get drunk at the Bawdyhouse).
Some draft party rules, taken from TPT.
The cost of hosting a dinner party is equal to the Residence Rank x 10 Crowns per guest (including the host and any mistresses who attend).
A host may not charge for entry and so must shoulder the entire cost of hosting the dinner party himself,
neither may he spend any additional money to gain any extra Status.
Unlike Toadying, Status is gained by the host at a rate of 1 Status per player character guest, regardless of their respective Social Levels, plus he receives an extra Status for every 5 guests at his dinner party, including mistresses.
The maximum number of guests depends on the the character’s abode (see the Residences Table). This limit applies to player character guests only and neither the host nor any mistresses are counted towards the dinner party limit.
If a character’s mistress attends a dinner party that he hosts, she will act as the hostess and oversee the decorations and domestic servants, ensuring that the event benefits from the feminine touch.
This is subject to the host’s Class of Residence, as a mistress will only act as a hostess at a residence suitable for her Social Level, though she will still
attend merely as a guest (see the Residences Table). When a character’s mistress does act as a hostess, the host earns additional Status equal to the Class of Residence at which the dinner party is held.
All guests who attend a dinner party receive 2 Status plus the difference in Class between the residence at which they are a guest and that which they are eligible to live in. So a higher SL character attending a lower class dinner partycan result in a reduction of the Status that might otherwise be earned. When a character’s
mistress does act as a hostess, all guests earn an additional 2 Status.
Regardless of any other rules, apart from Status gained or lost from duels or drunkenness, all guests gain a minimum of 1 Status for attending a dinner party.
(If people like that, balls would follow a similar pattern but naturally be fancier).
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Post by huillaume on Feb 2, 2021 4:11:10 GMT
The proposed (provisional) list: Lady's Slipper - 10 Does this include Female Company, as rules say (not tah Huillaume inteds to visit this club, but others may be interested)? BTW, about Lady Slippery, rules say: (bold is mine) One or two points? Some draft party rules, taken from TPT. The cost of hosting a dinner party is equal to the Residence Rank x 10 Crowns per guest (including the host and any mistresses who attend). A host may not charge for entry and so must shoulder the entire cost of hosting the dinner party himself, neither may he spend any additional money to gain any extra Status. Unlike Toadying, Status is gained by the host at a rate of 1 Status per player character guest, regardless of their respective Social Levels, plus he receives an extra Status for every 5 guests at his dinner party, including mistresses. The maximum number of guests depends on the the character’s abode (see the Residences Table). This limit applies to player character guests only and neither the host nor any mistresses are counted towards the dinner party limit. If a character’s mistress attends a dinner party that he hosts, she will act as the hostess and oversee the decorations and domestic servants, ensuring that the event benefits from the feminine touch. This is subject to the host’s Class of Residence, as a mistress will only act as a hostess at a residence suitable for her Social Level, though she will still attend merely as a guest (see the Residences Table). When a character’s mistress does act as a hostess, the host earns additional Status equal to the Class of Residence at which the dinner party is held. All guests who attend a dinner party receive 2 Status plus the difference in Class between the residence at which they are a guest and that which they are eligible to live in. So a higher SL character attending a lower class dinner party can result in a reduction of the Status that might otherwise be earned. When a character’s mistress does act as a hostess, all guests earn an additional 2 Status. Regardless of any other rules, apart from Status gained or lost from duels or drunkenness, all guests gain a minimum of 1 Status for attending a dinner party. (If people like that, balls would follow a similar pattern but naturally be fancier). See that this needs to define the Residence Ranks, as to now this factor is not featured in the residences table. This aside, it seem to me quite harsh, as costs would be quite expensive to any residence with a minimum of status (though this would depend on how residence ranks are defined). As per host SP gain, with this rule if Huillaume invites 10 SL 3 characters (assuming there were that many), he'd gain the same 12 SPs that if he invites 10 Dukes...And would cost the same... I'd suggest instead of 1 extra gain per 5 guests, to accrue one extra SP per (host SLx2) added status levels in the party, not counting mistresses (rounded down). E.g.: if Huillaume (SL20) hosts a party with 6 characters SLs 18, 16, 14, 12, 11 and 10, as added Sls are 81, so Huillaume collects 6 + (81/40), so 8 SPs.For a ball, just add the cost of the musician (probably more than one, but only the best skill would count, modified by +1 per each 3 aides, that would cost as one level less), make them roll and give the host SPs as for an artist work, and add the mistresses SLs to the formula above. If you want, a success (result 1-2) for the musician could also add one to all attendants dancing skill, while a failure (result 5-6) would subtract one. E.g.: if in the same dinner as above is a ball and the mistresses have the same Sls as their beaus, Huillaume hires a professional musician whith 6 men orchestra (total cost 15 + 6x10, so 75, but with the skill of the professional having 2 added) who achieve a result of 2, Huillaume's points would be 1 (for the musician's result) plus 5 for characters, plus 4 for SLs, plus (or mins) dancing results.This way, the SPs a host gain are more in according to the SL of the attendants than to raw numbers of people (IMHO more consistent with the game). Of course, just a draft for you to think about... |
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 2, 2021 11:22:57 GMT
The proposed (provisional) list: Lady's Slipper - 10 Does this include Female Company, as rules say (not tah Huillaume inteds to visit this club, but others may be interested)? Only if you're a member; that doesn't change. Two points, although that's mostly a RP thing. I can't see many players (maybe Jason  ) doing that. That'd be like Toadying works at private parties. Rooms are RC 1 up to Chateaus at RC 7. Funnily enough, I was thinking it was quite generous! Not in terms of cost, which is high, but in terms of SP it seems pretty good. At the moment, Hulluame has one PC (Renald) in the whole of Paris that he gains any benefit from them toadeying, at the cost of 80L if both bring their mistresses. But one thing I am inclined to change is that mistresses won't host if it's not high enough SL. I don't see why Emelin would refuse to host if you don't buy a chateau. That would mean that a dinner party with three gentlemen and their mistresses would be expensive (an eye watering 480!) but would gain you 10 SP, easily one of the higher single awards in the game. I also think I'm inclined to give a SP for each mistress that attends. That's not so much because of SP (although it would raise it to 13), but because at the moment the rules put you in the odd situation of not wanting mistresses there. I looked at coupling it to SL but can't work out how to balance that. Your suggestion is a good example. It works at your SL, but not for lower SL characters. Let's take a Gentleman (SL 4) in an Apartment as an example. He manages to persuade you, Renald, Jacques and Arnold to attend a small gathering, without your mistresses. That's a bit expensive (costing 100L for the party). However for 100L they've got 18 SP, assuming no hostess! That's enough, by itself, to raise them a SL. Balls I think should be even more spectacular, a "social event of the year" kind of thing. Of course, just a draft for you to think about... [/quote] |
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Post by huillaume on Feb 2, 2021 15:24:37 GMT
That'd be like Toadying works at private parties. Rooms are RC 1 up to Chateaus at RC 7. Then to invite someone for a dinner at a romm would cost 10 L per person (as only one guest may fill in), so 20 livres counting the host... Funnily enough, I was thinking it was quite generous! Not in terms of cost, which is high, but in terms of SP it seems pretty good. At the moment, Hulluame has one PC (Renald) in the whole of Paris that he gains any benefit from them toadeying, at the cost of 80L if both bring their mistresses. But one thing I am inclined to change is that mistresses won't host if it's not high enough SL. I don't see why Emelin would refuse to host if you don't buy a chateau. That would mean that a dinner party with three gentlemen and their mistresses would be expensive (an eye watering 480!) but would gain you 10 SP, easily one of the higher single awards in the game. I also think I'm inclined to give a SP for each mistress that attends. That's not so much because of SP (although it would raise it to 13), but because at the moment the rules put you in the odd situation of not wanting mistresses there. I guess you're right, It's too much, both in price and in SPs gain... See that if inviting someone to a dinner in a large mansion costs 60 L/person, that's mearly the King's monthly support (without conspicuous consume)... Maybe former rules worked better (aside from being more simple), maybe just changeing the SP gain for guests to house rank, instead of needed SL... Even so, I keep thinking the total SL should define more the SPs gained by the host than the number of people. What would have higher coverage? a party with 3 SL 20 dukes or one with 10 Sl 4 gentlemen? With the rules as you suggest, the 3 dukes will give 3 SPs, while the 10 gentlemen will give 12 Sps. Over triple cost, 4 times SP gain... According my suggestion, the tree Dukes would give 60 added SL, while the gentlement only 40. Of course, then the cost should be changed accordingly (after all, again, the Dukes would expect better fares than the gentlemen). I also see it as more filling to RG! spirit, where SL count more than numbers for social view, and a SL 11 person "is worth" more than 2 SL 5 ones I guess if Huillaume fills his Mansion of such low SL "mob" (as it would be seen by the high society) he'd better has a good reason, or he should lose more SPs than he could gain... So, My suggestion would be to forfeit the 1 SP/person, to keep former costs (as carousing) and, if you want to give additional SPs (as you say, Huillaume has only one character with whom to toady), the make it by total SLs at the party, but keeping the toadying SP gain/loss. This will make for Huillaume (being hte most extreme case) worth a party, as, depending on the divisot, it would be worth to invite people he whould usually not gain SPs from. I looked at coupling it to SL but can't work out how to balance that. Your suggestion is a good example. It works at your SL, but not for lower SL characters. Let's take a Gentleman (SL 4) in an Apartment as an example. He manages to persuade you, Renald, Jacques and Arnold to attend a small gathering, without your mistresses. That's a bit expensive (costing 100L for the party). However for 100L they've got 18 SP, assuming no hostess! That's enough, by itself, to raise them a SL. My numbers are he would gain 4 SPs for inviting 4 people plus 66/8 (total SLs divided by twice his own) rounded down, so 12, not 18 SPs, though that does not make your point wrong But, IMHO, if this gentlemen manages to have those four rising stars as his guests at a private party, he well deserves it. Balls I think should be even more spectacular, a "social event of the year" kind of thing. Then I guess we'll not see too many PC sponsored balls... |
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 2, 2021 16:44:31 GMT
Then to invite someone for a dinner at a romm would cost 10 L per person (as only one guest may fill in), so 20 livres counting the host... Correct. I think the King can be assumed to be on ConCon 4. Aside from that, I'm not sure that the SPs are unfair with the higher cost. The main thing I'm trying to watch here is that it doesn't become obviously better than clubs. If we were talking about a small mansion rather than a large one you'd only be paying 5 less than you're currently paying for drinks, with a lot more benefits! Keeping the old rules is obviously a possibility as well. One possible way to do it I just thought of would be to treat it mechanically like confessees. Every 12 SL of attendees is worth a SP, including mistresses. Apart from the hostess who gets the already mentioned residence bonus. My view is that we either go with "expensive, but good SPs" or keep Hulluame limited in the SPs he can gain from parties. Mostly because of the "not obviously better than clubs" thing I mentioned. Total SLs, but no increased costs, feels too powerful. Oops, yes, I think I must have added someone's SL in twice. 12 (+ a potential 2 for the hostess) is still too much though. It's better than being knighted! Whereas what I suggested would give 6 + 2 (I don't want to move away from rounding all half fractions up) is still good, but a bit less "once in a lifetime events" level. That's by intent; I'd rather have them as rare special events rather than standard. It much like investments; they're a minority pursuit for gentlemen with lots and lots of money! |
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Post by huillaume on Feb 2, 2021 18:13:52 GMT
I think the King can be assumed to be on ConCon 4. Probably Aside from that, I'm not sure that the SPs are unfair with the higher cost. The main thing I'm trying to watch here is that it doesn't become obviously better than clubs. If we were talking about a small mansion rather than a large one you'd only be paying 5 less than you're currently paying for drinks, with a lot more benefits! Where do those "5 less than currently paying" come from. As I see it, Huillaume is now paying 40 to carouse with Emelin, and that would cost 50... ]My view is that we either go with "expensive, but good SPs" or keep Hulluame limited in the SPs he can gain from parties. Mostly because of the "not obviously better than clubs" thing I mentioned. Total SLs, but no increased costs, feels too powerful. Well, I said myslef that costs shuld be revised. What about "higher SL attending in livres per person"? This would make low SL parties possible, while high SL ones quite expensive (and beware if some Royal decides to attend by surprise ) Oops, yes, I think I must have added someone's SL in twice. 12 (+ a potential 2 for the hostess) is still too much though. It's better than being knighted! Whereas what I suggested would give 6 + 2 (I don't want to move away from rounding all half fractions up) is still good, but a bit less "once in a lifetime events" level. Well, if this same SL 4 character is invited by Huillaume to carose wit hhi mat Fleur de Lys (he's better has a good reason for it, as having been rescued), he will accrue 16 SPs; 7 for club difference, 8 for toadying (SL20 to SL4) and one for carousing... And jsut for 24 lv, whoever pays them... That's more than being named Viscomte or Comte, to keep with your comparative... That's by intent; I'd rather have them as rare special events rather than standard. It much like investments; they're a minority pursuit for gentlemen with lots and lots of money! If that's the intent, you're right that's the way. What about Club balls? |
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Post by huillaume on Feb 2, 2021 18:26:54 GMT
I guess in general, and more so in this specific case, the difficult thing is to find the right balance among cost, benefir, playbility (simplicity) and RPG effect...
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 2, 2021 20:42:46 GMT
Where do those "5 less than currently paying" come from. As I see it, Huillaume is now paying 40 to carouse with Emelin, and that would cost 50... Sorry, 5 less per person, not overall. Still seems better than club parties? That's the main balance issue I'm watching here. I'm less worried about expense in the abstract. I see this as a bit like the highest levels of ConCon or alms; they're a way for wealthy characters to show off their wealth. Because of this, one option you might prefer is we could add this as an option, but not take the original option away. In other words, you can have dinner parties like this or informal drinks following the current rules. Heh, that's a fair point. Honestly, it's never come up, but if people start inviting people 16 SL below them to toady much I think I may need to look at bigger penalties! Replaced with club parties, including for wedding receptions where necessary. Honestly, it never really made sense to me that Gentleman's Clubs had their own ballrooms, apart from maybe the Fleur! |
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Post by huillaume on Feb 3, 2021 12:10:35 GMT
Still seems better than club parties? That's the main balance issue I'm watching here. I'm less worried about expense in the abstract. I see this as a bit like the highest levels of ConCon or alms; they're a way for wealthy characters to show off their wealth. Because of this, one option you might prefer is we could add this as an option, but not take the original option away. In other words, you can have dinner parties like this or informal drinks following the current rules. Or keep the House parties as this higher Sl attending per guest ss house paries (remember, after all, you must also buy and maintain the house itself), while those higher costs you say to be for those fancy balls you told about... But your idea would also work, alowing for just informal soirées or full parties Heh, that's a fair point. Honestly, it's never come up, but if people start inviting people 16 SL below them to toady much I think I may need to look at bigger penalties! Agreed. That's why I said he better have a good reason. Even if Huillaume wanted to invite Philibert to reward his good service as aide, this enourmous social difference would produce rumors (loss of SPs) at least... |
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) doing that.