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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Aug 30, 2019 13:36:50 GMT
Unfortunately, there may come a time where gentlemen may need the attentions of a doctor. There are several potential situations where this may be useful. Wounds – A good doctor can help you recover from your wounds quicker. Disease (including social diseases) – A good doctor will improve your chance of recovery. Duels – If you have a doctor on hand it can save your life! Doctors adjust your roll on the death table if reduced to 0 End. (Charitable characters can order their hired doctors to help either duellist. PC doctors may also put this in their orders). If the Doctor manages to raise the death roll to 7 or more no permanent damage is suffered! Regimental Surgeons – See the Appointment rules for details on this. It's worth noting that a bad doctor can make things worse! How this WorksMedical Ability is rolled in the same way as Military Ability and uses the same results table, giving a result from 1-6. Result
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| Wounds Recovery
| Illness Recovery
| Duelling Death Roll
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| 1
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| 175% of Normal Healing
| +4
| +2
| 2
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| 150% of Normal Healing
| +3
| +1
| 3
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| 125% of Normal Healing
| +2
| +1
| 4
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| Normal Healing
| +1
| 0
| 5
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| Normal Healing
| 0
| 0
| 6
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| 75% of Normal Healing
| -1
| -1
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Medical Malpractise
A doctor may deliberately choose to give a -2 to Illness Recovery or the Duelling Death Roll! However, the Doctor will be caught on a 5-6 and can be charged with attempted murder (a minor offense) by the CPS. If the patient dies the charge is murder. (A NPC Doctor will only do this on a roll of 8+ which can be influenced with a level 3 Favour. Because of the possible ramifications doctors are generally very reluctant to do this!)
Hiring Doctors
Doctors aren't cheap! PCs can charge what they want, but NPC doctors will charge their Medical Ability x5 per week's attention or Medical Ability x10 for Duel Supervision. (Wounds and the Clap take one week's attention, other illnesses take two weeks). If a doctor pays a patient attention several times in a month the best result is taken.
If you require confidentality doctors will charge twice the normal amount. If a PC doctor takes money for confidentality and then breaks that they lose 2 SP and the patient has cause for a duel with them.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Aug 30, 2019 13:57:47 GMT
Additional:
Doctors are at minus 2 Medical Ability to treat themselves.
All characters will have a Medical Ability of between 1 and 3 to start; this will be added in your next returns.
No NPC Doctor will have a MA more than 6. PCs can get up to 10.
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Post by huillaume on Aug 30, 2019 14:27:56 GMT
Additions suggested (jsut some color added):
Should a Doctor (one acting as such, not anyone with Medical Ability, of course) need to be treated, he will be without cost.
This has usually also interpreted as no fees wil be charged to colleagues (other phisicians), a tradition yet today honored by many doctors (hospital costs are enterly another matter).
Any doctor so caught will be expelled from the medical college (and from the Science Acadmy, if he's member)
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Aug 30, 2019 14:30:35 GMT
Addition suggested (jsut some color added): Should a Doctor (one acting as such, not anyone with Medical Ability, of course) need to be treated, he will be without cost. This has usually also interpreted as no fees wil be charged to colleagues (other phisicians), a tradition yet today honored by many doctors (hospital costs are enterly another matter). That's a nice bit of flavour but I think halved costs instead; doctors still need medicine etc.
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Post by huillaume on Aug 30, 2019 14:34:13 GMT
Addition suggested (jsut some color added): Should a Doctor (one acting as such, not anyone with Medical Ability, of course) need to be treated, he will be without cost. This has usually also interpreted as no fees wil be charged to colleagues (other phisicians), a tradition yet today honored by many doctors (hospital costs are enterly another matter). That's a nice bit of flavour but I think halved costs instead; doctors still need medicine etc.
Nice. As I said, hospital (and drugs) costs are another matter...
PS: I edited my psot to add another thing while you were answering
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Aug 30, 2019 14:56:46 GMT
Any doctor so caught will be expelled from the medical college (and from the Science Acadmy, if he's member) [/div] [/quote] That makes sense, I think on a guilty conviction. They'll also lose any medical appointments (which I still need to do).
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Post by huillaume on Aug 30, 2019 19:46:16 GMT
A logical specification...
Well, there's already one: the Regimental Surgeon...
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Aug 31, 2019 15:20:00 GMT
Medical Appointments. We already have regimental surgeons in the main rulebook. (Thanks to Huillaume for those rules!) Rank | SL Needed
| Special Requirements
| Appointment | Number Allowed
| Who Appoints
| SP | Inf | Die | Add Pay
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| N/A
| 4
| Medical Ability
| Resident Doctor at the Lady's Slipper
| 1
| Club Owner
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| 5
| Special
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| Fellow in the Royal Academy
| 8
| Medical Ability
| Senior Fellow of Medicine
| 1
| Director of the Royal Academy
| 4
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| 6
| 5
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| Fellow in the Royal Academy
| 10
| Medical Ability
| Royal Doctor
| 1
| King
| 8
| 8
| 7
| 30
| | Fellow in the Royal Academy
| 12
| Medical Ability
| King's Doctor
| 1
| King
| 12
| 9
| 8
| 30
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Additional Notes
All medical appointments are affected by Medical Ability, in the same way some army appointments are affected by Military Ability.
Full time members of the army or clergy can not take Medical Appointments.
Resident Doctor at the Lady's Slipper - You must spend one week out of each month attending to the lady's at the club. This pays twice the normal rate (10 x Medical Ability). While working the character may automatically avail himself of the services for free and attain female companionship. The owner of the club needs a Rank 1 Favour to influence.
Senior Fellow of Medicine - Twice the number of votes for any treatise relating to medicine or the physical sciences.
Royal Doctor - Roll 2d6 once a month. On an 11 or 12 gain another Rank 8 favour. On a roll of 2 the character is dismissed and may never apply for this or the King's Doctor position in the future.
King's Doctor - Roll 2d6 once a month. On an 10 - 12 gain another Rank 9 favour. On a roll of 3 the character is dismissed and may never apply for this or the Royal Doctor position in the future. On a roll of 2 the character is dismissed and charged with treason!
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Post by gaston on Aug 31, 2019 16:35:55 GMT
Could we have some clear definition of the title 'Doctor' please? Since PCs can start at Medical Ability 3 could I suggest that a Medical Ability of at least 4 is required before a character may call himself a Doctor ? That means at least a modest attendance at Medical School will be required before a character can consider himself qualified. It also means that NPC Doctors will have a Medical Ability of at least 4, so that at least those hiring them will know they won't make things worse I'd also like to suggest that "If the SCR is 5 or 6 he loses .25" be changed to "If the SCR is 6 he loses .25", otherwise Doctors with Medical Ability 4 could quickly become ex-Doctors. Since it's not possible to raise Medical Ability higher than 5 at the University, raising it further is going to be difficult enough without playing 'snakes and ladders' with skill levels. Finally, presumably the Lady's Slipper counts as a 'fine house or better dwelling' for medical purposes, allowing the resident doctor to roll at a skill level one above his actual level ?
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Aug 31, 2019 17:44:47 GMT
Could we have some clear definition of the title 'Doctor' please? Since PCs can start at Medical Ability 3 could I suggest that a Medical Ability of at least 4 is required before a character may call himself a Doctor ? That means at least a modest attendance at Medical School will be required before a character can consider himself qualified. I think that a "doctor" for the purposes of these rules is anyone who has taken at least 2 courses at the University. (This is highly unrealistic but making people spend years at medical school is not fun!) Which does much the same as you're suggesting, but allows for unqualified sawbones to set up as barber-surgeons if they wish. This does mean that an utterly hopeless doctor will get a penalty to the appointments but not actually be ineligible for them. Much like you can get Regimental Commanders with a MA of 1. Instead, all Medical Ability scores can be considered an abstraction of public knowledge. If a poor character wants to take his life in his hands by seeing a sawbones with a Medical Ability of 2 they're able to, but it's a free choice. As part of that does anyone object if I add PC Medical and Artistic Ability to the greasy pole, much like Military Ability. NPC Doctors up to MA 6 are always available in Paris baring special circumstances like Random Events. No on that one. Firstly, a Doctor with a MA of 4 can lower the chances of a mishap to 1 in 6 simply by spending time at the university or using better quality accomodation. Secondly, it matches up with the rules artists are using; letting doctors have less chance of dropping would be an unfair advantage. While military commanders only lose MA on a result of six that's more than balanced by both the fact they can have their results made worse by higher commanders and the fact that you can die on campaign! It does, but it only allows treatment of The Clap on its premises. As an additional rule, any Lady Slipper's member may use the Clap Clinic for free and discretion is assured.
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Post by huillaume on Aug 31, 2019 18:59:07 GMT
Could we have some clear definition of the title 'Doctor' please? Since PCs can start at Medical Ability 3 could I suggest that a Medical Ability of at least 4 is required before a character may call himself a Doctor ? That means at least a modest attendance at Medical School will be required before a character can consider himself qualified. I think that a "doctor" for the purposes of these rules is anyone who has taken at least 2 courses at the University. (This is highly unrealistic but making people spend years at medical school is not fun!) Which does much the same as you're suggesting, but allows for unqualified sawbones to set up as barber-surgeons if they wish. This does mean that an utterly hopeless doctor will get a penalty to the appointments but not actually be ineligible for them. Much like you can get Regimental Commanders with a MA of 1.
I agree with that. Remember in that time universities were quite diferent from now, and, after all, any character who starts with "high" Medical Ability can be assumed to have studied (or practicised) it previously to going to Paris, much as MA or expertise (Artistic Ability may be a gift, not just training).
Well, poor people might only aford poor doctors (in fact, practicioners, more than doctors). They may even be worse than hoping for natural healing...
That's in fact not too unlike rality (more so at this timem nostly when hospitals were quite dangerous for infections).
Remember to othat what we know today as medicine is quite diferent than in XVII century. Medicine was considered a science, and the doctors used to learn from their masters or at universities, but there was nor a regulated system of exams or anything likely. The idea of needing some time studying it seems good to me.
Surgery, OTOH, was considered an art, and many of the unlicenced (this meaning they have not attended the Medical Uniersity) were quite good at their jobs, despite not being doctors, but surgeons or practicioners, in many instances their knowledges coming from experience with their masters or old remedies other such informal surgeons have ta ught to them. Many clergy was trained on it, despite not being seen as doctors (hence the bonus for being into a monastey, I guess.
I agree (to a point) here with gaston, i nthat lowering it should be more difficult. Unlike Military, where a disaster was attributed to bad leadership (and hence, losing confidence or the trust of the troops), or Artists, that bad works tend to discourage them (aside from lowering their fame, an important part of their sucess), for doctors (even now, but quite more then) the worsening, or even the death of the patient is seen more as a true possibility, and so makes little to the doctors confidence . Every doctor has lost patients, not every Military has lost battles, nore every Artist has presented flawed works.
Repetitive bad results, though, might lower MA, as the individual will accrue bad fame, and will end up really doubting about himself and his capacities.
Not me.
As an aside, I 'm not sure the intial score should be lower than MA or AA, as in al lcases it may mean previous experience, be it by studies, by hoby or because circumstances lead them to learn (a sick elder i nthe family he/she had to care for experience in first aid, etc), as Iguess it happens in MA and AA (while I believe AA needs to be gifterd for it, it can be learned to some extent).
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Aug 31, 2019 20:24:44 GMT
I agree with that. Remember in that time universities were quite diferent from now, and, after all, any character who starts with "high" Medical Ability can be assumed to have studied (or practicised) it previously to going to Paris, much as MA or expertise (Artistic Ability may be a gift, not just training). I take your point, but as an aside I think there's an element of natural talent in most of those abilities. Military Ability definitely has. Especially when you consider that it covers not just tactical understanding but abstracts issues like how well you inspire your troops to carry out your orders. Expertise is similar. As someone who [boast] represented his school in national fencing championships [/boast] while there's a lot of training needed natural ability comes into play as well. It's also worth noting that in our game clergy may work as doctors, just not go for the medical appointments. That's one of those things where playability takes place over strict historical accuracy. (I don't think clergy would have charged historically?)
To crunch the numbers a bit about why I'm dubious about this.
If you raise the SCR number need to 6 nobody with 4 or more MA would ever run the risk of losing it. 3 if you assume good conditions.
As a compromise, maybe if someone gets a SCR of 5 or 6 and then their next roll isn't a 1 or 2?
Not me.
As an aside, I 'm not sure the intial score should be lower than MA or AA, as in al lcases it may mean previous experience, be it by studies, by hoby or because circumstances lead them to learn (a sick elder i nthe family he/she had to care for experience in first aid, etc), as Iguess it happens in MA and AA (while I believe AA needs to be gifterd for it, it can be learned to some extent).
[/quote] I actually think 3 is pretty good for someone with first aid skills. Treating illnesses is a step beyond that. Honestly though, that one's mostly there for metareasons, not historical accuracy. I want a soft limit on the amount of doctors in the game. It's much like the fact that only gentlemen can start as clergy. There's no historical reasoning there, it's to make sure the clergy game is smaller than the military game. (I'm not running Vatican En Garde! after all!)
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Post by huillaume on Sept 1, 2019 11:19:00 GMT
Another possibility:
To be considered a Doctor, one must enter the Medical College. To enter it, the character must roll a 6 (modified by its Medical Ability as MA modifies some appointments). No Sl limits or DMs, but it can be influencied (see below). Attempt to join the College can be done when arriving to Paris (assuming he hs studied it before) or after finishing a medical course in the University of Paris. Characters may keep attanding the University even when they have Medical Ability 5, so that they have another try, even if they don't increase their Ability.
A character may exercise even if not College member, but then he will be considered a Practitioner or Surgeon, not a Doctor (and probably earning lower fees).
This would need (at least) another Appointment: the Dean of the Medical College, that would be the one to be influenced to enter the College (I leave details to the GM). (Optional: this appointment makes the character temporary member of the Royal Accademy or Science as long as he keeps it).
Other possible Appointments could be for hospitals, making them akin of Regiments, with Practicioners being akin to privates , Young Doctors to sublaterns, senior doctors to Captains ( in both cases with the same duties), Service Chiefs (Medicine and Surgery) to Majors and Subdirector and Director to Lt Col and Col respectively...
Of course, there might be several such hospitals in Paris, and the posts would not be subjected to promotions, or bought, but be treated as apointments, and, of course, to be Young Doctor or higher would neeet to have been accepted in the College...
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Post by gaston on Sept 1, 2019 11:30:55 GMT
A couple of quick observations:
- It doesn't seem fair that the Medical College should be the only one where entry isn't automatic
- As Sam has said, he wants to avoid Liminal become a 'doctor's En Garde!'. Currently, only those who start with Medical Ability 3 are likely to pursue a medical career - no-one wants to spend too much time studying - and even then, only those who particularly wish to become Doctors.
- From past experience, the more complex the rules of an EG! game become, the more likely it is to become too much for the GM to adjudicate each month and the more likely it is that the game folds. It would be great shame if that happened to Liminal too soon...
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Post by huillaume on Sept 1, 2019 12:00:31 GMT
A couple of quick observations: - It doesn't seem fair that the Medical College should be the only one where entry isn't automatic
What do you mean here? I don't know about other such colleges whose entry is automatic in the game (maybe I skipped some rules)...
I think this to be just a way (a not too easy one, but easier than years of study) to specify who can be called Doctor, not only related to his Medical Ability.
I frankly don't believe too many characters would follow this path, in any case (but I might become surprised, of course)...
You're quite right in this, as in any game...
In any case, the complexity of the rules is not as affecting to this as how many people wants to really use them and how many diferent paths people takes. EG! initially leaft Military as the nearly only wasy, if we want to introduce more (as Artists or Clergy), rules for them must be done, while you're right in that this risks bogging down the game.
The GM should decide wich detai llevel he wants, and he's, of course free to accept those suggestions, part of them or none. That's why I left much of it only as a undeveloped suggestion, as some would probably don't need to be developed.
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