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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Oct 23, 2020 14:21:44 GMT
Influence level 5 for the CPS, Influence 7 for the Duke's Men (it's difficult because it's the Duc's call). 7+ in both cases.
This needs a few more rules though:
If Claud gets kicked out of the Duke's Men he will NEVER be able to rejoin unless either a) the director changes or b)Hulluame specifically requests the ban is lifted.
Naturally, Hullaume absolutely has cause for this duel!
However, solving your problems through the courts isn't really the done thing. Helen was a special case because she was being slandered by a character who isn't supposed to duel (and she can't duel either). If you go the legal route you'll only get 1 SP if you win the duel rather than 3. (I'm happy to let you retcon this if you want as you didn't know this!) I'll be open about this; I want to discourage people from taking slander cases when duelling is a more exciting option.
If Claud refuses the duel or doesn't turn up he becomes a Knave.
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Post by huillaume on Oct 23, 2020 14:26:55 GMT
OOC: IMHO, there are two diferent things here: one is the slandering, for what Huillaue sues him to the CPS, and the other are the insults (mostly against Emelin), for which he challenges to a duel.
Of course, I'll accept the lessened SPs if Huillaue wins the duel, but both routes wil lbe followed, the honor one and trying to make his life as miserable as Huillaume now thinks he deserves.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Oct 23, 2020 14:32:58 GMT
OOC: That's fine, but yes, it will be with the lessened SP.
Essentially, Hulluame is following a path there used mostly by women and tradesmen rather than gentlemen hence the penalty. Even the King doesn't normally bring slander cases. (He gets the Champion to give them a thrashing instead!)
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Post by Renald De La Azur on Oct 23, 2020 14:51:35 GMT
OOC would not the fact that Huillaume called out Claude mean that Claude gets the choice of weapons, also as Huillaume has said that he will be using Influence does that mean the rest of us need to announce it if we wish to influence in this matter?
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Post by huillaume on Oct 23, 2020 15:17:52 GMT
OOC: That's fine, but yes, it will be with the lessened SP. Essentially, Hulluame is following a path there used mostly by women and tradesmen rather than gentlemen hence the penalty. Even the King doesn't normally bring slander cases. (He gets the Champion to give them a thrashing instead!) Anyone can challenge to a duel, but it takes power (influence, etc.) to make one's life miserable, and that was what nobles used to do, even if a duel challenge was in order. |
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Post by huillaume on Oct 23, 2020 15:23:33 GMT
OOC would not the fact that Huillaume called out Claude mean that Claude gets the choice of weapons, also as Huillaume has said that he will be using Influence does that mean the rest of us need to announce it if we wish to influence in this matter? As I understand it, no. Anything rquiering (or allowing) influence is posted for anyone who so decides uses it, but its use does not need to be public. I've used influences sometimes on behalf of others for appointments, sometimes with not even them knowing... |
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Oct 23, 2020 16:41:20 GMT
OOC: OOC would not the fact that Huillaume called out Claude mean that Claude gets the choice of weapons, With the rules as they stand at the moment, the challenger gets choice of terms including weapon. If people have an alternative preference happy to look at that, but obviously not for this duel! (In fact I lean towards that now you mention it so may change it to the challenged choosing weapons and the challenger choosing whether it's to first blood, surrender etc.) No, you can keep that secret. You do need to announce if you're trying an influencable action so other people know though. Anyone can challenge, it's winning a duel that proves your honour. And in influence; yes. That's getting him fired, stopping him getting appointments etc. This isn't a realistic historical simulation anyway. It would be very unlikely Hulluame would have been raised to a Barony in two years if it was! And certainly with the source material we don't see several chapters spent on the time Porthos took a member of the Cardinal's Guard to court for insulting him. The issue here is that slander would normally be dealt with honourably. And you're doing that to an extent, by challenging to a duel. But you're also telling the Parisian social scene that you're not confident enough in winning that duel and need an insurance policy just in case. Which you're completely free to do, but it's a final ruling that by doing so Hulluame is acting less honourably than he would be otherwise, hence the reduced SP for the duel. |
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Post by huillaume on Oct 23, 2020 17:09:23 GMT
Influence level Influence 7 for the Duke's Men (it's difficult because it's the Duc's call). 7+ in both cases. Hey, Huillaume tries to influence the company director, not His Grace himself  … While I understand your POV, I see two game mechanics problems : - I guess the same influence has to be used to enter the company, what makes it quite difficult for a new character.
- This makes easier to influence the Director of the royal Theater (favor 6) to ban him (not necessarily the rest of the company) from it (something to think about, BTW…)
Needless to say, your word is final, though. OOC would not the fact that Huillaume called out Claude mean that Claude gets the choice of weapons That depended on the tradition of the zone. At some zones, it was as you say, in others, the offended side (so the challenger) was who shoes the terms. I’m not sure which one was Paris tradition this time… This isn't a realistic historical simulation anyway. It would be very unlikely Hulluame would have been raised to a Barony in two years if it was! And certainly with the source material we don't see several chapters spent on the time Porthos took a member of the Cardinal's Guard to court for insulting him. Agreed, but we also see court intrigue in those novels, and getting into the way of your enemies is as part of this as dueling them. One reason we don’t see the protagonists of those novels to covertly (or not so covertly) confronting their enemies with such intrigue is because in most cases they are not as influent (IIRC, Portos is a noble, albeit a lesser one and not acting as such, but d’Artagnan and Aramis were not, and Cyrano was a simple soldier or subaltern In the Gascons) , but Buckingham does not use briute force (duels) to reach his goals, but money and influence. The issue here is that slander would normally be dealt with honorably. And you're doing that to an extent, by challenging to a duel. But you're also telling the Parisian social scene that you're not confident enough in winning that duel and need an insurance policy just in case. Which you're completely free to do, but it's a final ruling that by doing so Hulluame is acting less honourably than he would be otherwise, hence the reduced SP for the duel. As per status (not necessarily SPs, but more In the way of fame or notoriety) this will make Huillaume also an intriguer, something not badly seen in all this literature among Court men. Nonetheless, I accept the lessened SPs if Huillaume wins the duel, but, aafter the loss of his brother in one, he doesn't wish to kill anybody on duels, if he can avoid it. |
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Post by huillaume on Oct 23, 2020 17:18:40 GMT
Addenda to last psot:
Duels were a way to solve things among equals, and it’s unlikely Huillaume sees Claude as an equal, both from birth and current status (he more than doubles Claud).
You don’t challenge a fly that is disturbing you, you call a servant to crush him with a fly swatter (or however he wants to, as you don’t even care about it).
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Oct 23, 2020 17:22:03 GMT
Addenda to last psot: Duels were a way to solve things among equals, and it’s unlikely Huillaume sees Claude as an equal, both from birth and current status (he more than doubles Claud). You don’t challenge a fly that is disturbing you, you call a servant to crush him with a fly swatter (or however he wants to, as you don’t even care about it). Yes, but if that's his position he wouldn't be taking legal action over the insult either. Obviously, in terms of how RP, Hulluame can see it however you choose to though, regardless of what society thinks! |
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Post by huillaume on Oct 23, 2020 17:29:06 GMT
See that Cyrano does not challenge the actor who distubed Roxanne, but makes sdure he will not play anymore in the theatre...
That would be the quivalent to Huillaume having him fired from the company (or banned from the Royal Theater), each one on his best means.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Oct 23, 2020 17:35:45 GMT
See that Cyrano does not challenge the actor who distubed Roxanne, but makes sdure he will not play anymore in the theatre... That would be the quivalent to Huillaume having him fired from the company (or banned from the Royal Theater), each one on his best means. Sure. That's not the thing that's causing any issues and is completely within the realms of honourable behaviour. It's specifically that Hulluame is dealing with an insult by asking the courts to deal with it. |
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Post by huillaume on Oct 23, 2020 17:42:26 GMT
See that Cyrano does not challenge the actor who distubed Roxanne, but makes sdure he will not play anymore in the theatre... That would be the quivalent to Huillaume having him fired from the company (or banned from the Royal Theater), each one on his best means. Sure. That's not the thing that's causing any issues and is completely within the realms of honourable behaviour. It's specifically that Hulluame is dealing with an insult by asking the courts to deal with it. I'm afraid I did not explain Huillaume actions well if you so undertand: Claud spread rumors about Huillaume embelezzing the Lottery money, and that's not an insult, but a false accusation, and false accusations are dealt in the Courts of Justice. The insults (and specially calling Emelin a harlot), being a matter of honor, have caused Huillaue to challenge Claud (BTW, Huillaume being a military man and Claud not, I'm not sure this would have been seen as the most honorable action, though the size of the insult would sure justify it) and making his life as miserable as Huiillaume can. BTW, I was about to ask you to move this discussion to OOC thread. Good job as forum administrator too |
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Oct 23, 2020 18:09:59 GMT
I'm afraid I did not explain Huillaume actions well if you so undertand: Claud spread rumors about Huillaume embelezzing the Lottery money, and that's not an insult, but a false accusation, and false accusations are dealt in the Courts of Justice. In the game world (as opposed to historical reality. As I pointed out before in a historically accurate game Hulluame wouldn't be a Baron alrady) they're treated exactly the same. Partly because,for obvious reasons, I'm not writing out a complex legal system that goes fully into stuff like the difference between libel and slander. So, in the game world, not the historical world, Claud's accusations are him calling Hulluame's honour into question. Again, in the alt history we're playing in rather than real history, the following is true: 1. By challenging him to a duel, Hulluame has taken the most honourable action. 2. By also using the courts, Hullaume is taking an action seen by the general populace as less impressive. For Liminal's Paris, the situation is more like 15th Century England: In other words, Hulluame is choosing to act like the "mass of humble folk" rather than one of the shining stars of the Parisian social scene. Obviously, Hulluame can see it how you want to RP him and can absolutely believe this is the correct course of action and other PCs will see it however their characters see fit. However, this is how it's seen in this version of the En Garde! world by NPCs etc. and Hulluame's justifications don't change that for those NPCs. In Liminal's Paris, Hulluame is not acting in the most honourable way. Of course, if you really want to use the courts against your enemies become CPS and then it's entirely part of your expected social behaviour. |
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Post by huillaume on Oct 23, 2020 18:18:21 GMT
Influence level 5 for the CPS, Influence level Influence 7 for the Duke's Men (it's difficult because it's the Duc's call). 7+ in both cases. Hey, Huillaume tries to influence the company director, not His Grace himself … While I understand your POV, I see two game mechanics problems : - I guess the same influence has to be used to enter the company, what makes it quite difficult for a mew character.
- This makes easier to influence the Director of the royal Theater (favor 6) to ban him (not necessarily the rest of the company) from it (something to think about, BTW…)
Needless to say, your word is final, though. Another detail, according the table in page 38-39 of the rules, the CPS needs influence 6, not 5. |
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