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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Apr 29, 2020 0:42:59 GMT
This one's reasonably straightfoward.
The current rules have military ranks needing a specific rank and characters losing those appointments on promotion.
There have been objections that makes people choose between the two and is a disadvantage which is valid.
However, it's also been brought to my attention that not keeping that rule can lead to some weird results.
A good example is Jacques Bougiedure who has been promoted to Captain (the calvary equivalent of Major) but is also Mestre de Camp and unable to command troops. Surely the Dragoon Guards want their new captain to command a squadron so the lower ranks aren't doing so?
And theoretically you could get some very odd situations; Brigadier Generals working as Regimental Adjudants etc.
This seems a binary yes/no question so I'm not going to draw it out. Poll closes at 11.30 PM on Saturday.
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Post by Jacques Bougiedure on Apr 29, 2020 1:17:25 GMT
In the modern military promotion requires assignment to a position commissarate with the new rank. My squadron commander had his change of command ceremony departing command followed immediately by his promotion ceremony promoting him to full Colonel, then he disappeared onto the division staff. In another case, an officer selected to command my battalion was also selected for promotion to Colonel. He decided not to take command (which would have prevented his promotion to Colonel) in favor of seeking a Colonel's position.
OTOH, fiction is full of examples where characters turn down promotions because they want to stay where they are at. Commander Riker turned down promotion to Captain at least once in order to remain with Captain Picard. The influence and status that go along with military appointments might be enticement to decline promotion.
Players could decide in their standing orders if they will accept promotion (default) or decline promotion in order to retain their appointment. Being that this a game about social climbing, accepting promotion should be the default because it advances social standing. A Major in the lowly Gascon Regiment still outranks a Captain who is the Aide to the Crown Prince.
For a character that declines promotion, the easiest thing for the GM would for the promotion to be lost and not converted to MID.
A more complex option but fairer (to the character) would be to apply rules for Brevet Rank (rules 18.17 to 18.20) until the end of the appointment, then granting the promotion assuming that a position is open. If there is no open position, the promotion is lost unless the GM wants to allow the character to transfer to an open position in a less prestigious regiment. For example: Jacques states that he is declining promotion to remain the Dragoon Guards Mestre de Camp, he is promoted to Brevet Captain and continues to serve until the end of the appointment (April in the following year). The next April, there are no vacancies for Captains in the Dragoon Guards, so Jacques loses his brevet promotion and reverts back to a Lieutenant. Alternately, he could transfer to the Brittany Regiment to take one of the two Major vacancies in that regiment.
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Post by gaston on Apr 29, 2020 8:43:11 GMT
Sorry, but what is 'an unsuitable rank?'
I don't have a problem with Jacques Bougiedure continuing to handle the regimental paperwork now he's been promoted Captain. If he'd returned to Paris a Lieutenant at the end of the campaign he'd have been able to party all month while still holding the appointment, in the same way that the Minister of State can party all month if there are no government meetings or receptions to attend. Most appointments are 'no-time' affairs anyway, so why should his Captain's rank be considered 'unsuitable'?
Brigadier Generals working as Regimental Adjutants etc. is another matter entirely and obviously an 'unsuitable rank' for the post.
Some EG! games have a rule that characters must resign appointments if promoted two ranks above the requirement for holding it. This prevents staff officers making any sudden unexpected returns to Paris and allows characters to plan their next moves a little (order refusal of the next promotion / the seeking of a new, alternative appointment). That way Captain Bougiedure would be able to hold his appointment until promoted Colonel, while the Brig.Genaeral would have had to resign his Regimental Adjutant's post upon being promoted to Lt.Colonel (so that situation would never arise anyway).
Could I suggest a new poll with that as a third option, and that in the new poll 'to an unsuitable rank?' (which nudges toward a yes vote above) be changed to 'above its minimum requirement' which is far more neutral and less loaded?
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Post by huillaume on Apr 29, 2020 8:49:15 GMT
We should remember that Liminal rules allow Military men to decline a promotion. So, when one holds a Military appointment, he should choose among the possibility of keeping it or to be promoted...
Of course, this excludes aides, that are expressely excluded in the rules because they are aides to a man, not to a post.
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Post by gaston on Apr 29, 2020 8:58:55 GMT
We should remember that Liminal rules allow Military men to decline a promotion. So, when one holds a Military appointment, he should choose among the possibility of keeping it or to be promoted... All well and good, but Jacques Bougiedure didn't even know if he'd be in the regiment or not. Is it reasonable to expect all officers to carry crystal balls around in their knapsacks ?
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Post by huillaume on Apr 29, 2020 10:29:38 GMT
We should remember that Liminal rules allow Military men to decline a promotion. So, when one holds a Military appointment, he should choose among the possibility of keeping it or to be promoted... All well and good, but Jacques Bougiedure didn't even know if he'd be in the regiment or not. Is it reasonable to expect all officers to carry crystal balls around in their knapsacks ? No, but it's reasonable to plan for any contingency. As I give oreders all turns for Huillaume should he go to the front,even if the Royal Equwerry has denied permission , just to add a sentence in your turn as "(character's name) delcines any promotion" is not so hard... If he didn't know if he should be in the Regiment, he sure gave a lot of conditional orders, and this one should have been there... And sure he didn't either know he would hold the appointment. OTOH, i n this specific case, I'm not against an "ad hoc" arrangement, more so as the promotion rules were not in the rules (I guess accidentally, and no one had realized it until now) and he did not know promotion can be refused.
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Post by gaston on Apr 29, 2020 10:40:42 GMT
Well, it still seems totally dumb to me to 'reward' characters who are promoted at the front by dragging them back to Paris against their will so they miss the rest of the action...
And this is especially true where commanders of Brigades, Divisions and Armies (whose absences will have a knock on effect upon all their subordinates) are concerned.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Apr 29, 2020 10:44:54 GMT
Jacques doesn't want to refuse promotion I believe; he wants to command a squadron.
He was Mestre de Camp, not Commissionaire. So the Adjudant rank. Which doesn't have a command position; it affects the Regimental Commander's MA instead. I don't think that one can change for two reasons. It would require an entire rework of the regimental structure. Also, it could lead to a situation where someone is both Regimental Commander and Regimental Adjudant. That one's not purely hypothetical; one of the infantry regiments just ended up with a Major adjudant and a Captain acting commander. (I just changed that on the grounds nobody cares about it in a regiment with no NPCs).
I'll see if I can edit a new one into the post.
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Post by huillaume on Apr 29, 2020 10:50:36 GMT
If he's in the DG, he'll be at the front, be it as Captain or as Lieutennant and Mestre de Champ...
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Apr 29, 2020 10:51:56 GMT
New poll added; vote again please.
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Post by Father William Souris on Apr 29, 2020 10:54:28 GMT
what of Brevet ranks? Presumably a Captain breveted to Major can stay as Adjutant? (even if he could not if a full Major)
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Apr 29, 2020 10:57:25 GMT
Well, it still seems totally dumb to me to 'reward' characters who are promoted at the front by dragging them back to Paris against their will so they miss the rest of the action... And this is especially true where commanders of Brigades, Divisions and Armies (whose absences will have a knock on effect upon all their subordinates) are concerned. That's a fair point. Maybe this doesn't apply to commanders at the front? The weirdness seems to be an issue mostly on a regimental level. Someone being left in position as a division commander when they have the rank to command a full army seems less of a problem; both in terms of plausiblity and mechanics.
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Post by gaston on Apr 29, 2020 11:10:26 GMT
So the acting Adjutant consults with the regimental commander re the plan of attack then goes to lead his company in executing it. Not really a stretch is it?
Not if the regimental commander has to resign the Adjutant appointment upon being promoted two ranks beyond eligibility.
But the rule would mean that large unit commanders were pulled back to Paris...
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Apr 29, 2020 11:13:20 GMT
what of Brevet ranks? Presumably a Captain breveted to Major can stay as Adjutant? (even if he could not if a full Major) Yes, a brevet can take either position. (This is mostly likely to come up in the Guards regiments, hence I can see your interest! Not all regimental commmanders are Colonels due to casualties. We have several regiments with a Captain as an acting commander, especially in the infantry regiments.
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Post by gaston on Apr 29, 2020 11:19:35 GMT
So some unnamed NPC handles the appointment duties in the interim period. The posts are only important (for SPs and favours) when in Paris really. Why should the acting commander find himself stripped of the the appointment when he returns to Paris because he 'stepped into the breach' while at the front ?
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