|
Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Apr 26, 2020 23:12:15 GMT
Note:
This has been discussed previously back in November. Back then I said I was putting it on the backburner. However, having seen the effects of the original rules in play I'd like to revisit it.
Proposed new Shylock rules:
Rather than loans being due over six months, they roll over indefinitely. But 6% interest is paid on the loan each month. (So a loan of 700L will cost you 42L a month). If a character is unable to pay the interest the Shylocks will demand the full amount is paid. Which would lead to the current situation of needing to go to the front until you have the money.
Reasons behind this:
Plausibility: IC, the reasons for this change are that the Shylocks are near bankruptcy, because of young men taking large loans and dying at the front! (I haven't worked it out exactly, but we're looking at several thousands lost in the game so far at least).
Gamewise: Increasingly I'm of the view that the current system leads to dull outcomes. Character arrives in Paris. Character takes out large loans. Character goes to the front and either makes the money back or dies. If the latter, they repeat the process.
Few notes:
If this was to be brought in characters with outstanding loans would have the choice of paying off the interest so far and having a rolling loan or keeping the old style loan. Nobody is disadavantaged that way.
The 6% interest rate is harsh (and probably ahistorical). But they are called the Shylocks for a reason! That may go some way to allievating previous concerns about the new system being too lenient and leading to characters taking out loans with worrying. That said, it could be higher. I did consider going to 10%, but thought that might be too harsh. But I'm interested in hearing people's views on this.
|
|
|
Post by Yves Eau on Apr 26, 2020 23:45:57 GMT
Wonga! The old system was ridiculous. As you have noticed, the rational course was to take a loan then adopt a high-risk lifestyle. Winners prospered; losers perished. As for the rate, let's see how it plays out.
|
|
debreos
Junior Member
Surviving
Posts: 54
|
Post by debreos on Apr 28, 2020 18:37:43 GMT
Agreed. With the old system, you didn't have much time to take advantage of a loan - so had to go to the Front to earn some loot. If you are allowed to pay "interest only" over a period then that may allow you to set up a non-military career from the beginning. What interest rate to pay, I'll leave to wiser (and more mathematical) heads to suggest.
Regards,
David Waring
|
|
|
Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Apr 28, 2020 18:41:19 GMT
The other main issue I have with the old system is an old RPG problem. Because players can always have a new character, it's actually better to take silly risks overall.
There's really no reason not to max out your loan and go to the front in the current system, unless you start as a very wealthy orphan etc.
|
|
debreos
Junior Member
Surviving
Posts: 54
|
Post by debreos on Apr 28, 2020 20:58:02 GMT
Although that does expose the non-RPers! And you can always refuse to let them back in.....
|
|
|
Post by gaston on Apr 29, 2020 10:36:25 GMT
IC, adventurers would make a up a very small proportion of the shylocks' customers. Most of their business would be more mundane loans to provide livestock, farm vehicles, houses, land, business requirements and so on. Can't pay? We'll just take enough of your livestock, vehicles, houses, farms, business to cover the loan and the interest. (They are called the Shylocks for a reason ). I don't see how that is going to change much. Characters come to the point where they realise they need more cash than they can borrow / can't keep up the interest payments, so risk their life at the front in hopes providing the shortfall. Same result, just maybe taking a bit longer to work itself out. More importantly, it's going to knock the other main reason for characters taking out loans - to buy up short term investments, take the profits, then liquidate them at a small loss - completely on the head. To borrow a sum for 6 months would now cost 36% of the principal (even at simple interest) to which a further 10% must be added for the subsequent investment liquidation fees. It totally ceases to be economic, as a result of which I can't see the proposed change as anything other than an attempt to keep characters in permanent debt and relative poverty. Even 2% per month interest would be a 20% increase on current interest rates... Could I suggest a compromise which would keep both those who which to make short term loans to fund investment and those preferring rolling loans with interest-only payments happy? Monthly interest, where levied, is at 2%. Loans continue to be taken out as is the case now but, if the debtor can't or wishes not to repay the loan in full with 10% interest at the end of the 6 month loan period, he or she can pay 15% of the loan (2% interest for the initial 6 months plus a 3% 'arrangement fee') and 2% interest per month thereafter until the loan is repaid. (If the 15% can't be repaid, then the debtor is disgraced as usual).
|
|
|
Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Apr 29, 2020 11:32:50 GMT
Could I suggest a compromise which would keep both those who which to make short term loans to fund investment and those preferring rolling loans with interest-only payments happy? Monthly interest, where levied, is at 2%. Loans continue to be taken out as is the case now but, if the debtor can't or wishes not to repay the loan in full with 10% interest at the end of the 6 month loan period, he or she can pay 15% of the loan (2% interest for the initial 6 months plus a 3% 'arrangement fee') and 2% interest per month thereafter until the loan is repaid. (If the 15% can't be repaid, then the debtor is disgraced as usual). Only a minor change, but I think 3% not 2% for the loan. That fits with the discussion in the other thread (and has the unessential but nice bonus of being very close to historical rates). Apart from that, this seems reasonable. What do other people think?
|
|
|
Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Apr 29, 2020 12:21:52 GMT
Monthly interest, where levied, is at 2%. Loans continue to be taken out as is the case now but, if the debtor can't or wishes not to repay the loan in full with 10% interest at the end of the 6 month loan period, he or she can pay 15% of the loan (2% interest for the initial 6 months plus a 3% 'arrangement fee') and 2% interest per month thereafter until the loan is repaid. (If the 15% can't be repaid, then the debtor is disgraced as usual). Quick question. If someone goes to the front in disgrace are they paying the original loan or the loan with interest off?
|
|
|
Post by gaston on Apr 29, 2020 13:17:49 GMT
That's 10% for the first 6 months then 3% per month thereafter ? Otherwise, again, it would discourage short term loans for investment purposes. Given the life expectancy of Frontier Regiment privates this is probably academic Realistically, at that point, it doesn't seem worth spending further man hours working out the increasing interest on a loan which will probably be never repaid. I think the Shylocks would probably add the original sum to the interest outstanding at that point and take that as the total owed - which I think is what banks still do these days at that point ?
|
|
|
Post by huillaume on Apr 29, 2020 13:25:33 GMT
I personally like he rules suggested in the OP (a monthly percentage for indefinite time), though I'd add a percentage on final payment (about 5%, as now it's no longer the total benefit for them).
If so, though, another question remains: can partial payments be done?
e.g., if a character owes 1000 cr, and so he's paying 60 L/month as interests for them, can he repay just 500 (or 525, if this 5% final payment interest is applied), and so pay less interests (30 l/month) in the future until he (hopely) can repay the remaining 500 L (or 525)?
|
|
|
Post by gaston on Apr 29, 2020 13:32:45 GMT
That's effectively what you'd be getting with the suggested amendment - without making it pointless to take out investment loans...
|
|
|
Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Apr 29, 2020 13:39:01 GMT
Only a minor change, but I think 3% not 2% for the loan. That fits with the discussion in the other thread (and has the unessential but nice bonus of being very close to historical rates). That's 10% for the first 6 months then 3% per month thereafter ? Otherwise, again, it would discourage short term loans for investment purposes. That's correct. However, I am starting to think that maybe the Shylocks should just offer two different types of loan; short term and long term. Despite appearances, I think that may be easier in terms of bookkeeping as the nature of the loan won't change after six months. And if characters choose a short term and can't afoord it that's on them. (And the Shylocks will seize property in the case of death, making it more worth it for them). Is that still in the rules? If so it shouldn't be! Military characters now join at their normal rank. I see no reason why the Frontier regiments (who almost always have vacancies) wouldn't want experienced officers in command positions. Note that the interest does NOT go to paying off the loan. It's a very good deal for the Shylocks. And yes, partial payments are possible. [/quote]
|
|
|
Post by gaston on Apr 29, 2020 13:51:01 GMT
I was thinking more of non-soldiers, who will still be joining as privates. (Not that most officers are much better off in the survival stakes). Not sure what the rules regarding soldiers defaulting on debts are...
|
|
|
Post by huillaume on Apr 29, 2020 13:55:03 GMT
That's effectively what you'd be getting with the suggested amendment - without making it pointless to take out investment loans... It seems I read you wrong then... Then I support you ammendment.
|
|
|
Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Apr 30, 2020 0:03:50 GMT
Suggested revised rules.
Note that this make the penalties for defaulting MUCH harsher. The assumption is that characters should not take out loans they can't pay back.
Two arguments for that.
Firstly, it fits the reputation of the Shylocks. "A pound of flesh" after all.
Secondly, it discourages the gambling with character lives I'm trying to minimise.
Loans
The Shylocks offer two kinds of loans, short term investment loans and long term personal loans.
Investment loans automatically become due after six months plus 10% interest.
A personal loan has no due date, but charges 5% of the total a month in interest.
A character may have both types of loans, up to a maximum of SL x 100.
Loans may be paid off early with no negative effects.
Defaulting
If an investment loan is not paid back on time the Shylocks will up the interest to 30% of the loan as a default fee.
If a character cannot pay the monthly interest on a personal loan the Shylocks will insist on the full amount and will continue adding interest for each month it remains unpaid.
The Shylocks will first deal with a defaulted loan by seizing property. They will seize, in order, racehorses, carriages, private theatres, bought titles and the associated lands, private residences.
The Shylocks will not seize lands granted by the King.
All property will be auctioned off in that order (with a minimum of the normal selling price for that property) to raise the funds for the debt. After the debt level is met any unauctioned property will be returned to its owner, along with any raised monies above the debt level.
If the debt remains uncleared the character is disgraced until the remainder is paid off, including interest.
Transferring assets.
If someone loans, sells or gifts valuables while in debt to the Shylocks, then dies or defaults, the Shylocks will realise what's happened on a 4-6. If they do so, they will ask for the goods or equivalent value to be returned instantly.
If refused, they will bring a prosecution of the person holding onto the goods on the grounds of breaking a contract. (A low crime).
Even if the goods are returned the Shylocks will no longer be willing to lend that person money and will instantly cash in any debts. (They take a very dim view of people trying to cheat them of their due!)
|
|