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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 4, 2022 2:00:13 GMT
As I'm sure some of you have noticed, we have three lucky PCs in the position where it's not unfeasible that they could outstrip the King in SL within a year! What I will say is that I don't think the core rules ever really looked at what to do in this situation. Ironically, higher SL characters have a much easier time gaining more SP than mid tier PCs. That's both because of opportunities for high SL in the core rules (high end appointments) and because of some our house rules (court, audiences etc.) If people prefer, we could leave as is. It's balanced in the sense everybody can get to it. So it may be a case of "if it's not broke, don't fix it". PCs having a higher SL than the King is odd in terms of game setting, but isn't actually an issue mechanically (well, ok, it has some oddness where toadying is concerned). One thing I definitely want to work on is more things to do in the high end game; parliaments, expansions of minister roles. I'll be honest that's not the main rules priority at the moment though; understandably at the moment I'm focusing on things more likely to be used by a majority of players. Obviously, the main aim here is to try and make sure things don't get too formulaic and stagnant at the top levels. Here's some random brainstorming from me. (I like some of these ideas more than others!) Slow Down Progression - This has its own thread, but it's also possible we could do it for SL 20+ only. This pretty much boils down to whether it would feel like a good challenge or whether it would be frustrating. Remove Characters from SL 25+ - I put this in because it's a common approach in many games where PCs who get too high find themselves imprisoned or even killed by The King. I personally don't like it; it feels like a punishment for rising in SL and encourage people to deliberately avoid rising in SL. Hard Cap on SL - A bit of a blunt instrument and I worry that removing the ability to rise in SL would lead to things stagnating more, not less. A World Ending event when people hit a certain SL - Similar to the other ones, but more exciting. I'm talking about attempts to overthrow the king or something like that, leading to a reset. This would seem a fairer way for high SL characters, but potentially too much for lower SL ones who would also reset. Increase random deaths - Black Sails did this with disease in port. But not only am I less sure it makes sense in Paris, it can feel very abitrary. Frontier and duels are something that can be planned for. Even a 0.01 chance of dying is still someone being killed by a random dice roll with no way to alleviate it. Increase PvP deaths - The main reason I don't think this is a good idea is that I don't think many players (apart from Jason ) would be in favour of that. I base that partly on feedback, but also the fact that most of you seem to try and avoid causing PvP with the mechanics that already exist; avoiding enemy regiments, not going after other men's mistresses etc. As you can probably tell I don't think there's an easy fix here and as I said I'm also good with the "it's not worth worrying about" approach. But feedback on this somewhat complex issue is welcome.
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Post by Monique Adelina De'Ath on Feb 4, 2022 7:25:21 GMT
As I'm sure some of you have noticed, we have three lucky PCs in the position where it's not unfeasible that they could outstrip the King in SL within a year! What I will say is that I don't think the core rules ever really looked at what to do in this situation. Ironically, higher SL characters have a much easier time gaining more SP than mid tier PCs. That's both because of opportunities for high SL in the core rules (high end appointments) and because of some our house rules (court, audiences etc.) If people prefer, we could leave as is. It's balanced in the sense everybody can get to it. So it may be a case of "if it's not broke, don't fix it". PCs having a higher SL than the King is odd in terms of game setting, but isn't actually an issue mechanically (well, ok, it has some oddness where toadying is concerned). One thing I definitely want to work on is more things to do in the high end game; parliaments, expansions of minister roles. I'll be honest that's not the main rules priority at the moment though; understandably at the moment I'm focusing on things more likely to be used by a majority of players. Obviously, the main aim here is to try and make sure things don't get too formulaic and stagnant at the top levels. Here's some random brainstorming from me. (I like some of these ideas more than others!) Slow Down Progression - This has its own thread, but it's also possible we could do it for SL 20+ only. This pretty much boils down to whether it would feel like a good challenge or whether it would be frustrating. Remove Characters from SL 25+ - I put this in because it's a common approach in many games where PCs who get too high find themselves imprisoned or even killed by The King. I personally don't like it; it feels like a punishment for rising in SL and encourage people to deliberately avoid rising in SL. Hard Cap on SL - A bit of a blunt instrument and I worry that removing the ability to rise in SL would lead to things stagnating more, not less. A World Ending event when people hit a certain SL - Similar to the other ones, but more exciting. I'm talking about attempts to overthrow the king or something like that, leading to a reset. This would seem a fairer way for high SL characters, but potentially too much for lower SL ones who would also reset. Increase random deaths - Black Sails did this with disease in port. But not only am I less sure it makes sense in Paris, it can feel very abitrary. Frontier and duels are something that can be planned for. Even a 0.01 chance of dying is still someone being killed by a random dice roll with no way to alleviate it. Increase PvP deaths - The main reason I don't think this is a good idea is that I don't think many players (apart from Jason ) would be in favour of that. I base that partly on feedback, but also the fact that most of you seem to try and avoid causing PvP with the mechanics that already exist; avoiding enemy regiments, not going after other men's mistresses etc. As you can probably tell I don't think there's an easy fix here and as I said I'm also good with the "it's not worth worrying about" approach. But feedback on this somewhat complex issue is welcome. As per my comments on other thread regarding SL's thanks for the options....especially that one about over throwing the King!! Only if only I were one of those high SL players already, King Anton has such a splendid ring to it! However if you implemented, for example, the remove characters who are 25+ that's 2 gone already (Hmmh...mind you one of those is that de Bearne fellow.... ) and I doubt the players concerned would be too happy. Hard Cap is not attractive to me but the World Ending event is interesting as it may see a concerted effort by other players to take out or foil a character(s) who are close to usurping the King (Hmmmh that includes that de Bearne again.... !). Random deaths always hilarious....as long as it's not your own character! The disease element may make it more profitable for Doctors though, either for people to play or for those that are in play as they are best placed to try and tackle diseases in addition, of course, to various ViP's bad guts! On the final option of PvP deaths as you have rightly included....oh you perceptive man Sam (!) - I'm fine with this one so if we have to vote for one I choose that option otherwise...despite the temptations, I'll vote for status quo.
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Post by Jacques Bougiedure on Feb 4, 2022 21:16:31 GMT
It doesn’t feel right to me that a character would exceed the royal family in social level so your thoughts are timely.
I would prefer something that would permit characters to continue playing, either slowed down progression or a hard cap on SL. I feel that developing my character is more important (and interesting) than rising in social level so anything that increased the likelihood of losing a character (to forced retirement, increased random deaths, or a reset of the entire game world) is distasteful.
Perhaps there could be a maximum SL based on noble rank. For example Min SL New SL Max SL Chevalier 6 10 16 Baron 8 12 18 Viscomte 10 14 20 Comte 12 16 22 Marquis 14 18 24 Duc 16 20 26 Grand Duc 18 22 28
Non-nobles would be limited to a max SL of 16. This is a bit harsh for non-nobles but in keeping with the theme of rank conveying status.
My idea to develop end game would be based upon a limited number of “SL slots” that characters have to compete for in the style of court battles for FPCs
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Post by Father William Souris on Feb 4, 2022 21:19:03 GMT
Nobles who meet non-nobles of a higher SL can challenge them in standard rules. Not sure if that is in these rules. Not sure if helps ... especially if people are not willing to do so!
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 5, 2022 16:15:49 GMT
It doesn’t feel right to me that a character would exceed the royal family in social level so your thoughts are timely.
Yeah. It might make sense with the minor royals but even there it feels like a once a game miracle rather than standard.
That makes sense and of course we could even combine the two. One thing I think is also worth considering is allowing an (entirely optional) retirement of PCs that hit SL 20 or higher. While I'm generally resistant to people starting with better characters just for long play reasons, in the case of voluntary retirement it might make sense. More interesting than just stat bonuses might be to allow people to write their background first and then I'll write them a customised character accordingly.
That would allow those who like the SL chasing game to keep doing it but wouldn't force anyone to lose their characters.
On reset, I share your views I think. It's an interesting idea in a game where the end game is hardbaked into the rules from the start, but too difficult to add after the fact without being arbitrary and punitive.
Perhaps there could be a maximum SL based on noble rank. For example Min SL New SL Max SL Chevalier 6 10 16 Baron 8 12 18 Viscomte 10 14 20 Comte 12 16 22 Marquis 14 18 24 Duc 16 20 26 Grand Duc 18 22 28
Non-nobles would be limited to a max SL of 16. This is a bit harsh for non-nobles but in keeping with the theme of rank conveying status
My main observation there is that I like it, but it would be especially harsh on Jeff/AUB!
He has few ways of gaining MRLs and if he goes higher than Chevalier he loses SP for being a merchant. On the flipside, the merchant career has lots and lots of advantages and I think Jeff would agree "not enough to do in game" is not an issue currently. So this may not matter that much.
I'd be interested in seeing that fleshed out. The main thing to watch is that we don't want it impossible for later players to join up. Obviously, Berthault would have a long and difficult process to come anywhere near catching up with Jacques. But he shouldn't have no chance of doing so no matter how long he plays.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 5, 2022 16:18:31 GMT
Nobles who meet non-nobles of a higher SL can challenge them in standard rules. Not sure if that is in these rules. Not sure if helps ... especially if people are not willing to do so! It's not in the rules and realistically it would make almost no difference. There's no two characters currently in that position and the only ones I can see it being even possible with are Auguste against Doctor D'Eath/Maurice. (And again, a move that would specifically screw over AUB and nobody else is best avoided!)
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Post by huillaume on Feb 5, 2022 18:10:02 GMT
About outranking HM with SL, in Preux et Audacieus (spanish EG!, over 25 years old play with monthly turns), as HM SL is not specified in the game, he is considered to be always 6 SLs above the hihgest SL character...
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 5, 2022 23:57:23 GMT
About outranking HM with SL, in Preux et Audacieus (spanish EG!, over 25 years old play with monthly turns), as HM SL is not specified in the game, he is considered to be always 6 SLs above the hihgest SL character... Hmm, that feels a bit artificial to me and doesn't solve the problem of the other NPCs! Also, while I don't speak Spanish, I think their more recent Greasy Pole has the highest PC at SL 25 so I assume they're using a cap or otherwise removing high SL characters from the game? To try and come up with a proposal (this is just that, this feels like something that needs more discussion). Implement the "retire at SL 20 or above and get a custom crafted character by the GM" rule now. That I think we can put in; it's optional. Note that the brief can be anything from three pages of background to something simple like "I want to play an English Spy" and I'll work accordingly. Hulluame, Renald and Jacques lose 3 SL, just to try and get things a bit under control compared to NPCs! In return you can have either 5 MRIs or a +2 to your next title roll (including secondary titles). I would offer money but I think when investments come in that one's covered. For SL 20+ the calculation is 3x SL to maintain or 5xSL to rise, making it a lot more challenging even with the high level appointments etc. (Even with this I think it's highly unlikely any of you will risk a fall in SL). Bring in caps based on JBO's suggestion. Although I'd lean towards having the cap as new SL+4, not +6. The reason for that is that would mean a Duc could attain 24 (only one less than Richelieu!) and a Grand Duc could achieve 26 (the same as the Crown Prince). Realistically, "as important as the Crown Prince" seems a reasonable limit. What do people think? Obviously, I don't want this to make the game frustrating rather than fun for high SL characters. Is the combination of these good or is all of them together too much?
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Post by huillaume on Feb 6, 2022 13:55:58 GMT
About outranking HM with SL, in Preux et Audacieus (spanish EG!, over 25 years old play with monthly turns), as HM SL is not specified in the game, he is considered to be always 6 SLs above the hihgest SL character... Hmm, that feels a bit artificial to me and doesn't solve the problem of the other NPCs! Also, while I don't speak Spanish, I think their more recent Greasy Pole has the highest PC at SL 25 so I assume they're using a cap or otherwise removing high SL characters from the game? Whel, the idea of the Grandes also raising their SLs from time to time is not so artificial, though making HM SL dependant on the players' is... See that in Preux et Audacieux ,as you say, the highest SL now is 25, so HM is counted as SL31. Should this character die (or retire), next one is SL 20, so HM would also "lose" 5 SLs... Nonetheless, as game effect (not as true SL) it seems to work... Frankly, I joined it just a year or so ago (while I played it at the begining, over 25 years ago) and I'm not sure how has Tirso (the GM) solved it, Iasked him, and wil ltell you when he answers. Implement the "retire at SL 20 or above and get a custom crafted character by the GM" rule now. That I think we can put in; it's optional. Note that the brief can be anything from three pages of background to something simple like "I want to play an English Spy" and I'll work accordingly. If anyone so retires his character, I suggest to add him to the Grandes list as another NPC to play with... For SL 20+ the calculation is 3x SL to maintain or 5xSL to rise, making it a lot more challenging even with the high level appointments etc. (Even with this I think it's highly unlikely any of you will risk a fall in SL). This was one of the suggestions I was thinking to make: to increase the SPs needed at those high SLs... Bring in caps based on JBO's suggestion. Although I'd lean towards having the cap as new SL+4, not +6. The reason for that is that would mean a Duc could attain 24 (only one less than Richelieu!) and a Grand Duc could achieve 26 (the same as the Crown Prince). Realistically, "as important as the Crown Prince" seems a reasonable limit. What do people think? Obviously, I don't want this to make the game frustrating rather than fun for high SL characters. Is the combination of these good or is all of them together too much Its Ok for me. I agree now I'm more interested i ndevelop Huillaume's history than raising more his SL...
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Post by huillaume on Feb 6, 2022 16:29:42 GMT
Tirso answered me. he says he only encounteres this kind of problem when there were too many such HL characters, and then they decided to retire them and start anew with lower SL ones. In other situations, he says his experience is the game itself controls this, as too high Sl characters have it quite difficult not even to raise their SLs, but to avoid lowering them. I must clarify some points, though: - no SPs are carried forward in Preux et Audacieus (something that allows to raise SL i nseveral turns in Liminal
- His game is quite more simple in careers and ways to accrue SPs to ugh large parties, balls, court events, etc (no skills)2
- You cannot accrue SPs for racehorses (or or races), charity in church, etc.
- Mistresses don't raise SL there (so if you raise it too much, they take you SPs, though they avoid NFC ones)
- OTOH, he allows each character to have one military and one civil appointment
- In resume, game is different in many senses.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 6, 2022 16:57:14 GMT
[If anyone so retires his character, I suggest to add him to the Grandes list as another NPC to play with... I really like that idea. I think maybe work with the player to decide what they want the new NPC to be doing, whether a regular at the court or retiring to the country and then do a writeup for the grandees list.
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Post by Renald De La Azur on Feb 6, 2022 19:55:22 GMT
Not sure what i think to be honest, sometimes it seems that it is to easy to advance than other times it seems impossible.
I have just got RA to the point where I sort of wanted him from the start.
I do think that if you have to retire a character then you should get some benefit for the next character.
ultimately it is your choice Sam, i don't think on this matter that you will be able to keep all of us happy.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 6, 2022 23:12:46 GMT
With the merchants, I think I'll just remove the rule about no nobility. It makes no sense when AUB is a merchant banker anyway.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 7, 2022 0:49:10 GMT
New little fun rule I'm implementing. Any son of a duke has a 1 in 6 chance of being the son of an archduke. This is very statistically unlikely.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Feb 7, 2022 2:46:41 GMT
Ok, as most people seem vaguely in favour I'm going to implement this as part of next turn.
One more rule. Maximum SP carryover is 2xSL.
Note that this is unlikely to be hit, it's to stop people at the cap getting scores in the hundreds!
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