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Post by Yves Eau on Aug 28, 2019 8:49:08 GMT
Do players with brigade, division, or army roles, and aides to general staff, have to resign if they want fight with their regiment?
Volunteering outside the summer campaign is a valuable source of gold and glory, but it would seem odd to me for an officer with an appointment to be gallivanting off to the front with his regiment. Would it be so easy for him to neglect the duties which bring him such status and influence?
Perhaps, back in the 17th century, France did not maintain a permanent command structure, but if there is no divisional organisation over the winter, why should officers receive pay and prestige for supposedly having such a command or support role?
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Post by huillaume on Aug 28, 2019 10:19:09 GMT
Do players with brigade, division, or army roles, and aides to general staff, have to resign if they want fight with their regiment? Volunteering outside the summer campaign is a valuable source of gold and glory, but it would seem odd to me for an officer with an appointment to be gallivanting off to the front with his regiment. Would it be so easy for him to neglect the duties which bring him such status and influence? Perhaps, back in the 17th century, France did not maintain a permanent command structure, but if there is no divisional organisation over the winter, why should officers receive pay and prestige for supposedly having such a command or support role? If when you say brigade , dividion or army roles you intend to say aides (or Brigade Major), I don't see a reason for them to resign if they volunteer (I understand with their units) outside the Summer season, unless the whole brigade (in the case of a Brigade Major) is also volunteering, as the commander he works with is not in campaign, so he does not really need him.
Likewise , as Huillaume is Ensign of the Cardinal Escort, in which situations should he go to Campaign (see that this would apply, I guess, to all membres of the King or Cardinal Escorts)? Options I see (there can be more): As any other subaltern, so if either the whole Regiment or the 1st Battalion goes (after all, rules don't say anything else)
Never, unless the Cardinal goes (the Cardinal Escort duty is to stay with him) Only if the whole Regiment goes Choice if the 1st Battalion goes (be it alone or as part of the Regiment) unless the Cardinal goee
IMHO, all of them have their logics... And yet, I guess those appointments do not preclude the character to volunteer for Frontier Regiments and keep the post (just taking an excedence to go with them)...
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Aug 28, 2019 10:40:57 GMT
I don't really have strong views on this. I think a discussion followed by a poll may be the way forward.
I'll be honest here. Not only did I last run En Garde! around 20 years ago, but my co-GM ran the military side of things freeing me up to concentrate on press. So generally I'm happy to let rules on this aspect of the game be driven by players.
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Post by Yves Eau on Aug 28, 2019 11:40:58 GMT
Do players with brigade, division, or army roles, and aides to general staff, have to resign if they want fight with their regiment? If when you say brigade , dividion or army roles you intend to say aides (or Brigade Major), I don't see a reason for them to resign if they volunteer (I understand with their units) outside the Summer season, unless the whole brigade (in the case of a Brigade Major) is also volunteering, as the commander he works with is not in campaign, so he does not really need him.
Likewise , as Huillaume is Ensign of the Cardinal Escort, in which situations should he go to Campaign (see that this would apply, I guess, to all membres of the King or Cardinal Escorts)?
Options I see (there can be more):
As any other subaltern, so if either the whole Regiment or the 1st Battalion goes (after all, rules don't say anything else)
Never, unless the Cardinal goes (the Vardinal Escort duty is to stay with him) Only if the whole Regiment goes Choice if the 1st Battalion goes (be it alone or as part of the Regiment) unless the Cardinal goee
IMHO, all of them have their logics...
And yet, I guess those appointments do not preclude the character to volunteer for Frontier Regiments and keep the post (just taking an excedence to go with them)...
My argument is that brigade majors, and adjutants and commanders of divisions and armies, could reasonably be expected to have duties at HQ, while those units are not on campaign, which would prevent them from heading off to battle with their regiments. This would be consistent with the rules for government ministers, who lose their appointments if they neglect their duties to fight at the front. Brigades are slightly different, being fixed in organisation, and available for front line service year-round. If a brigadier volunteers his entire command for service, he, his aide, and the brigade major all serve, but at brigade command level. If a single battalion or regiment is volunteered, brigade command remains in Paris, but this does not mean the junior staff are free to fight; they may be busy with essential duties such as polishing the general's medals, valeting his dress uniform, and generally trying to justify their extravagant existence. I see elsewhere in the rules (12.2 National Unrest) that an army or division commander may volunteer his unit to help quash a rebellion, though each regiment supposedly under his authority may refuse. The force organisation clearly remains in place beyond the summer campaign, though these general officers seem otherwise to have no influence. As less active units, perhaps they can more easily spare their adjutants, quartermasters, etc. I would be inclined to attach brigadier's aides and brigade majors to brigade HQ for the duration of their appointments, preventing them from volunteering a battalion or travelling with their regiment. For divisions and armies, perhaps not. This difference of treatment could explain why prestigious brigade appointments carry additional status, whilst a lesser commitment to an army or division does not. I would expect the King's and Cardinal's escorts to remain with their principal if their regiment or battalion volunteered for service. Is that not their primary responsibility? I do not see why service with a frontier regiment would be treated any differently to volunteering with one's own regiment. Perhaps any character with an appointment could request a leave of absence from the appropriate superior, similarly to regimental duties. For example, an ensign in the escort could ask his captain, a brigade major could ask the brigadier, etc. This would clearly give a huge advantage to PCs serving other PCs, as the superior has nothing to lose by granting permission (except his aide, should be die in battle), but that is true generally in the game. Where an NPC is asked, the chance of approval could depend on the length of absence requested. |
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Post by huillaume on Aug 28, 2019 12:22:53 GMT
I must fix myself in one point: all those HQ appointments mean to lose any command, so they cannot volunteer their units. So, the only case this would be an issue is if either their Regiment is voluntereed as a wole or they volunteer for the Frontier Regiments. See that is specified that players may take a leave to join the Frontier Regiments, so I guess this should apply for this case too. As for Escorts, of course some part of them (at least) will keep always with their principal, even if their Regiments go to front, but not necessarly all of it. That's why I added the possibility of player's choice (representing this), and also why I said all the possibilities I gave have their own logics.
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Post by Alain Andre Durant on Sept 15, 2019 23:10:40 GMT
Do players with brigade, division, or army roles, and aides to general staff, have to resign if they want fight with their regiment? Volunteering outside the summer campaign is a valuable source of gold and glory, but it would seem odd to me for an officer with an appointment to be gallivanting off to the front with his regiment. Would it be so easy for him to neglect the duties which bring him such status and influence? Perhaps, back in the 17th century, France did not maintain a permanent command structure, but if there is no divisional organisation over the winter, why should officers receive pay and prestige for supposedly having such a command or support role? Individuals holding positions outside of their normal structure no longer hold the command position of their rank in their normal regiment, but do retain their rank in that regiment. They could not volunteer their unit. The acting commander of that unit would be the individual volunteering the unit. If a higher officer volunteers a unit that would include the unit of the holder of a position outside of the unit, their position (vs regimental rank) takes precedence and they would not go to the front with the units because their position duties are necessary at the HQ. I always felt this was not properly explained in the rules. |
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Post by gaston on Sept 16, 2019 6:29:15 GMT
Or...
That's how such things have been handled in other games I've been in,
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Post by Yves Eau on Sept 20, 2019 7:46:54 GMT
Or... That's how such things have been handled in other games I've been in, That is precisely the method I was challenging. I think it is unrealistic for a character to hold responsibilities outwith his regiment, and receive pay and status therefor, yet march off to the front with his battalion. Surely, he is supposed to be doing something in his prestigious role. On the other hand, I think characters are generally allowed to volunteer with a frontier regiment regardless of other responsibilities (for example, a private or low-ranking officer who cannot persuade his major to take the battalion into battle), so the idea of shirking full-time responsibilities for a spot of derring do seems ingrained in the game. |
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Post by gaston on Sept 21, 2019 6:03:35 GMT
But if his staff unit isn't doing anything, this should be what, exactly ? And why should holding a staff position allow him to shirk his regimental duties at times when he has no staff duties to fulfil anyway? Just two different ways of looking at the situation... |
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Post by huillaume on Sept 21, 2019 10:21:31 GMT
I see elsewhere in the rules (12.2 National Unrest) that an army or division commander may volunteer his unit to help quash a rebellion, though each regiment supposedly under his authority may refuse. The force organisation clearly remains in place beyond the summer campaign, though these general officers seem otherwise to have no influence. As less active units, perhaps they can more easily spare their adjutants, quartermasters, etc.y to volunteering with one's own regiment.
Sure, but also in rules (mostly 20.12) that the organization is set by the GM in August (  I guess that's an errata and should be in April, BTW), and that while 3 Army and 6 Division Commanders are appointed in fall, not all have guaranteed commands.
So, while an Army or Division commander may volunteer his unit, which units compose it outside Summer, as no permanent organizations seem to be set?
Another question: should such a Rebellion occur in Summer, can they still volunteer units, while volunteering is not allowed?
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Post by huillaume on Sept 21, 2019 10:24:13 GMT
Another question, this time about subsitutions: are they made on a Regimental or Brigade basis?
And yet another: substitution may only be deided in April (I guess, as said, as the rules say August), or can be decided (or asked) while the campaign is going on (e.g .substituting a fresh Regiment or Brigade for another that has been depleted in combat (had a bad BR))?
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Post by Alain Andre Durant on Sept 22, 2019 12:44:34 GMT
But if his staff unit isn't doing anything, this should be what, exactly ? And why should holding a staff position allow him to shirk his regimental duties at times when he has no staff duties to fulfil anyway? Just two different ways of looking at the situation... Then when something arises at HQ that needs the attention of his position, they all wait twoweeks for word to reach him at the front, for him to come back, discuss the matter with the other staff members, make a decision, then leave for the front again. But wait, three days after he left there is another matte that requires his attention, but since he is riding fast tot the front, the person trying to catch him will have to go all the way there to get his attention again and bring him back home to HQ. So he has missed a full month at the front and receives no roll for loot or promotion or anything because he has spent all his time traveling, and the delay in his making a decision has meant that the Pyrenees were lost to Spain because the orders were delayed two weeks, twice. Yeah, I think they need him at HQ where his position has assigned him. |
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Post by gaston on Sept 22, 2019 13:27:30 GMT
And what matters are going to arise that can't wait a month when the unit isn't going to see action for another six? And isn't it the unit commander - a Lt.General or full General who won't have a regiment to serve with anymore anyway - who will need to make those decisions, not some lowly aide or adjutant ?
The advantages of a staff position should be 'as well as' not 'instead of' those accruing from belonging to a regiment. Sorry, but I just don't get the 'a staff position is an advantage, so we'll have to throw in some bogus disadvantages to compensate for that' kind of attitude.
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Post by huillaume on Oct 13, 2019 18:38:05 GMT
Do players with brigade, division, or army roles, and aides to general staff, have to resign if they want fight with their regiment? Volunteering outside the summer campaign is a valuable source of gold and glory, but it would seem odd to me for an officer with an appointment to be gallivanting off to the front with his regiment. Would it be so easy for him to neglect the duties which bring him such status and influence? Perhaps, back in the 17th century, France did not maintain a permanent command structure, but if there is no divisional organisation over the winter, why should officers receive pay and prestige for supposedly having such a command or support role? While loking at applications for other reaons, I found this in page 109 of the current rules (Liminal En Garde House Rules 1.1. Bold and underline is original, Red is mins) So, as I understand the red part, it seems that, when not in campaign with the General, the aide keeps his command, and so he can volunteer his unit as usual. NOTE: See that all of this applies to aides of General Staff, not to adjutants/Brigade Major About members of the Escorts, they are not marked as full-time appointments (they have no asterisk), and so not subject to 25.6 and can march to the front. |
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I guess that's an errata and should be in April, BTW), and that while 3 Army and 6 Division Commanders are appointed in fall, not all have guaranteed commands.