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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Nov 14, 2019 15:00:22 GMT
As mentioned previously, this won't be happening until after the Summer Campaign, but I'm going to be redoing these rules entirely.
There's two approaches I could take.
The simple - Go with the rules we already have alongside Fontainbleu as a base and just try and streamline it more.
The detailed - Essentially, this would mean I was pretty much porting the rules over from Nigel Mission's Sun King game. They're a lot more flavourful, if not strictly historic and do add a level of depth to the military game. They're a bit harder to grasp though because of the detail.
Which do people lean towards?
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Post by huillaume on Nov 14, 2019 15:04:08 GMT
Do you have any links to the cited games?
I'd like to take a look at them before giving any oppinion...
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Post by trajanius on Nov 14, 2019 15:06:17 GMT
I'm in favor of the more complex rules
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Nov 14, 2019 15:08:10 GMT
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Post by Yves Eau on Nov 14, 2019 17:01:08 GMT
I vote for the detailed approach. I already play Fontainebleau, and would welcome an opportunity to try something different.
Selfish question: if the army rules are changed after the summer campaign, what will happen to any poor souls desperately trying to fight their way free of impecunity?
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Nov 15, 2019 9:43:17 GMT
Selfish question: if the army rules are changed after the summer campaign, what will happen to any poor souls desperately trying to fight their way free of impecunity? It does look like they'll be changed. This is definitely one of the issues there seems to be near consensus on! In terms of the change over, when looking at things like which frontier people are on, the swapping out of regiments etc. the most charitable interpretation will be taken in all cases. However, if the new suggestions on Shylocks are taken (which I'm still unsure of; see that thread) I'll be allowing people to swap their loans over to the new system which may allow many to return home anyway.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Nov 15, 2019 10:55:56 GMT
Just as a taster, the new regiments:
1 Royal Foot Guards 2 Cardinal’s Guard, King’s Musketeers 3 Dragoon Guards* 4 Queen’s Own Carabiniers*, Crown Prince Cuirassiers* 5 King's Cuirassiers* 6 Royal Cravats*, French Guard (Burgundy) 7 Anjou Dragoons*, Picardy Musketeers 8 Champagne Regiment, Brittany Regiment 9 Normandy Regiment, Languedoc Regiment 10 Provence Regiment, Gascon Regiment (Gascony)
I believe the only player who will be affected currently is JPM, who will be in the "Languedoc Regiment" as opposed to the "4th Arquebusiers".
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Post by huillaume on Nov 15, 2019 11:06:37 GMT
What effect would this have, Regiment names aside?
I had no time to check th elinks you sent us, but I don't really see the goal of those changes.
OTOH, if only for the changes it will require in changing the lists, I would like to be sure all this work for the GM is worth of it due to the changes it might mean for the game...
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Nov 15, 2019 11:12:44 GMT
There's various, but some of the most significant:
Regimental structures will change, as will command dstrucutres.
There will be a lot more detail about campaigns, in particular frontier campaigns.
Generally, the goal is to make military feel a lot more immersive and less abstract.
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Post by huillaume on Nov 15, 2019 11:25:14 GMT
I'll have to take a look at those rules before answering any more...
BTW, I cannot download the Fontainebbleu rules (I'm not in FB). Cold they be postes (if there are no IP issues) here?
To begin with, though, I find current rules enough for the effect war is intended to have in EG!, though I might change my mind once I can read and study those other possibilities.
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Post by gaston on Nov 15, 2019 11:43:00 GMT
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Post by huillaume on Nov 15, 2019 12:22:42 GMT
Thank you. I promise to take a look on them along this weekend and give my opinion ASAP.
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Post by huillaume on Nov 18, 2019 17:23:50 GMT
As promised, I've taken a look (not as in deepth as I'd like) on them this wekend, and here go my first impressoins: About Fontainebleau:I don't see a big overhaul on them. The military Academy changes quite a lot, and other minor changes. I like its rules for the King/Cardinal escorts, though... About Sun King: That's enterily another matter... First of all, I must point this is about Louis XIV times, not 1630 ,and this means great diferences, IMHO, as while 1630 is a time where France was nearly permanently at war (Hugenots problems, Skirmishes with Habsburgs/Spaniards and latter (from 1635 to 1648) Thirty Years War), the kingdome of Louis SIV had more intermitent wars. About the regiments naming, etc:: I mostly see them too detailed, with too many regimental differences. While this may be historially accurate, it means (IMHO) too much compexity. OTOH, I like the idea of several provincial Frontier Regiments (in fact fronts), that may make some of them active and some not. See, though, that Liminal Rules have no specific rules for Provinces right now... About the several Hostilities level: As I said, the Kingdom of Louis XIII was marked (among other things) by a high level of military activity, and I doubt the level ever droped below what in game is 3-4 (alert/skirmishes) up to 1635 , and 8-10 afterwards until 1648. All of this is historical accuracy, though... About the Guards Rules: Of course those rules would affect Huillaume strongly, so my opinion can be biased right now... This puts the Guards on several limitations (as needing a title for RFG officers, limits to go to war, etc). OTOH , they may have some benefits in peace, being mostly involved in political ingtigues (as an aside, while Guard Duties is said to be 22.4 in rule 8.3, it is in fact 24.4). See that their members cannot even participate in Paris life if the Court is outside it. Also, not having fully read Court Rules (I centered in Military ones), I'm not sure if thsoe Guards Duties would befrully compatible with current Liminal rules about it. See also that they can volunteer as Companies, but no DMs are listed for them... In General, I see as making the whole brigade Escorts, instead of Elite Regiments where the Escorts come from (and the forfeiting of any Escort applications seem to point this way too)... Deployment Rules: They don't difer too much to the idea I gave (without knowing it) about decisive BRs leading to this mission end (though I don't see why troops in Defense that are decisively beaten, and so the fortress they defend taken, are kept in Defense). See that in the Original (an Liminal) rules, though, the whole army has not always the same deployment . Cavalry unitls, to give an example, are heavily biased to Field actions (logical ,as it's their main "zone of confort", and never particily in Assaults (again logical, as they lose all their advantages). I find them quite more logical than assigning a single mission for the whole Army. For likewise reasons, I'd assign any unit volunteering to reinforce units in Defense to Field, as they represent relieving units for a siege, not units that enter in the fortress to help defending them (if we assume the bessiegers know their job). In General: I'm not sure the effort and added compexity is worth it, mostly for the Regimental specificities and Hostility levels, and some other rules may collide with current ones, forcing further changes. OTOH, the more detailed (and varied) Frontier units and Deployement changes with decisive BRs appeal me, mostly for storytelling reasons, if they can be easily implemented. You must also weight how will they affect current players if they are applied (as I said, the effects on Huillaume, to talk only about myself, would be quite heavy, while not yet sure if good or bad). All this said:I mainly restate what I said before: I find current rules enough for the effect war is intended to have in EG!, though I might change my mind once I can read and study those other possibilities. This does not rule out the fact some points (as pointed) might improve the game Enough for now, though I don't promise not to expand this (even more) as I can read them more in depth).
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Nov 20, 2019 2:46:10 GMT
About the regiments naming, etc:: I mostly see them too detailed, with too many regimental differences. While this may be historially accurate, it means (IMHO) too much compexity. Quite honestly, I don't think those are especially complicated. They're just an extended version of the distinction between cavalry and infantry regiments. The real complexity comes with hostility levels and this: While it's possible to also look at province rules, they wouldn't actually be needed for this, except adding province of birth to characters. Obviously, historical accuracy takes second place in Liminal. That said, if there are more appropriate names for the Fronts, I'm happy to swap them out. About the Guards Rules: Of course those rules would affect Huillaume strongly, so my opinion can be biased right now... This puts the Guards on several limitations (as needing a title for RFG officers, limits to go to war, etc). OTOH , they may have some benefits in peace, being mostly involved in political ingtigues (as an aside, while Guard Duties is said to be 22.4 in rule 8.3, it is in fact 24.4). See that their members cannot even participate in Paris life if the Court is outside it.[/quote] They have one very big advantage. This is remarkably powerful: "Ensigns and Captains of the Guards are free to attend Court at any time when they are not on duty and may take their mistresses on these occasions." Being able to attend court (including court balls, hunts etc.) without being titled is really quite a big deal. Almost certainly not; I'd be rewriting those at the same time to make sure they fit. Well spotted! I'd just use the modifers from the original rules. That, for better or worse, is pretty much the case. It would be giving the Guards regiments the role of guards rather than standard troops. The quick summary is that I'm aware this heavily affects Hullaume, but you're pretty much unique in this. (The Cardinal Guards privates won't see anywhere near as much of a difference). However, this is where my previous comment about making the conversion as generous as possible comes in. If this does go ahead, there will be two major concessions to soften the blow for you. For this instance only, the title requirement for the rank will be waived, so Hullaume will not lose his Brevet Rank. If your'e wanting to volunteer your company in the Winter campaign you'll be considered to have made that roll successfully already.
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Post by huillaume on Nov 20, 2019 18:38:34 GMT
They have one very big advantage. This is remarkably powerful: "Ensigns and Captains of the Guards are free to attend Court at any time when they are not on duty and may take their mistresses on these occasions." Being able to attend court (including court balls, hunts etc.) without being titled is really quite a big deal. OTOH, they cannot volunteer to the front without permission from King’s Equerry (Archbishop of Paris for the CG), and that's no easy to obtain, as needs a 6+ (influence may be used, but I didn't find what influence is needed for the King's Equerry). They also may well miss a part of Paris life if the court is in any other places than Versailles or Louvre (and this, just to give an example, means that Huillaue could not court any Lady, so accruing NFC penalty, if the court is kept in other places for some months (I guess there are no bawdyhouses in the court)), and even Captains (equivalent to Majors) need to devote 1 week/month to Regimental duties (albeit they can obtain bonus during this time). BTW, I guess they also go to war if the King (RFG and KM) or Carinal (CG) does .. The quick summary is that I'm aware this heavily affects Hullaume, but you're pretty much unique in this. (The Cardinal Guards privates won't see anywhere near as much of a difference). Well ,IMHO the CG privates would also be affected, even if only because they cannot hope to influence their Regiment/Battalion commanders t ovolunteer, but also because their promotion possibilities are quite more limited (as three are less officers, having only a company) If this does go ahead, there will be two major concessions to soften the blow for you. For this instance only, the title requirement for the rank will be waived, so Hullaume will not lose his Brevet Rank. If your'e wanting to volunteer your company in the Winter campaign you'll be considered to have made that roll successfully already. That's ok, and if you decide to go ahead with this Huillaume will have to adapt and from RPG this can be even interesting. As I understand the rules, Huillaume would become an Ensign (brevet Captain) in the RFG now. In any case, as I understand what is said in SK, the Brevet Rank may be acheved without the tilte (you have a year to obtain the title, something quite difficutl if yo ucannot volunteer and an ycourt appointment means resignation, but that's another matter) , but it's not clear what happens if you receive another promotion: is hte Brevet rank confirmed ,despite not having a title (consistent with the Sl effect on Ranks) or is is converted to a MiD (sonsistent with no available posts)? Devil is in details, and it's all those details (as some of the ones I gave you), that will probably escape us when adapting the rules, that I'm concerned about, as they will probably appear as playing develops, forcing you to take ad hoc decisions as they do.
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