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Post by Adam de la Bassée on Nov 8, 2019 14:09:27 GMT
The increased mortality should only affect new characters. Raw recruits arrive, are sent ill-prepared into the crucible of war, and most perish. Those who survive are likely to return with promotions, MIDs, and coin. I have no problem at all with severe losses in the ranks, so long as some emerge stronger, wiser, and better-equipped to continue up the greasy pole. I realise it could be frustrating for someone whose repeated bad luck means he spends a year playing without ever reaching senior ranks, but I think En Garde! is better with a good spread of levels all the way up from humble peasant arriving in the city with nothing to his name to government minister helping or hindering at whim. Unless we see turnover of players, I think the best way to achieve this is turnover of characters. For me, the rule which has introduced great danger is the one about loans. If we were able to maintain debt by paying interest, we could continue longer without marching to war by extending our credit as our social level rises. We would then have time to rise through the ranks, join better regiments, and increase our chances of victory. However, I think this will force me to play differently to other games; I am happy for the variety. the "additional loans on SL are repayable at the same time as any initial loan" is the killer rule. IF I could borrow additional funds as a new 6 month term loan it is possible with effort to maintain your loans without needing to take the military path. The rule as written here means that no mattter how fast I rise in SL, I can never loan money to finance my debt from the shylocks. If we are talking rules that are hamstringing the game this one is a killer.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 14:19:44 GMT
Unfortunately, most players who have low MA are never going to increase it as they cannot learn beyond a MA of 3 and then will not beat their superior enough times to improve it after that. The good new is that the latest batch of characters have decent MAs (5+) as their previous characters only had MAs of 1 or 2.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Nov 8, 2019 15:27:03 GMT
People make some strong arguments on the Shylocks rule.
I'm also not sure it makes sense in terms of the gameworld.
Surely the Shylocks would a) actually want people to take out more loans (they make their money on the interest after all) and b) would only force people to the front as a last resort.
Does anyone actually like that rule or shall I just remove it?
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Post by gaston on Nov 8, 2019 16:15:46 GMT
Does anyone actually like that rule or shall I just remove it? I certainly think it's unnecessary. I agree with Brutus that it does hamstring the game insofar as forcing characters to the front much earlier than is necessary.
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Post by Yves Eau on Nov 9, 2019 0:43:30 GMT
Get rid. I assumed it was a deliberate attempt to force us prematurely to the front.
Lazy players (if such a thing exists) would not rise through the ranks anyway, so would soon be caught out - the way lenders seek to close the accounts of unworthy customers in real life. Those who seem to be doing well for themselves should be allowed to increase their indebtedness until it breaks them.
I would prefer an "interest only" rule, where we have to give the shylocks a return every month on what we owe them, but they continue our line of credit so long as our social standing matches our debt. Borrowing more to pay interest is a wholly realistic proposition. If you overdo it, it will catch up with you.
If we find the laxity makes life too easy for new characters, and the shylocks are caned as creditors die penniless at the front, the rate could be increased, but I feel the basic idea is sound.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Nov 9, 2019 1:34:37 GMT
Get rid. I assumed it was a deliberate attempt to force us prematurely to the front. Actually, quite the opposite! I'd be completely happy if the only time people headed to the front was if required by their career. I'm in favour of that on reflection. "Jean-Paul constantly borrows more money to sustain his lifestyle and keep ahead of his creditors" is a much more interesting narrative than "Jean Paul borrows money to enter a regiment then goes to the front and dies". I also think the rate is fine; when you consider it's essentially an annual rate it's already pretty high. My one big issue is finding a way to stop debt ridden characters just transferring anything they own to another PC when they are about to go to the front and then getting it back when they return. In an extreme situation, someone could blow all their money on a Chateau and get out of the debt entirely this way! A few ideas for that. Require property (including carriages, horses etc) to secure higher level loans. That's probably the most historical. The main issue with that is that it probably is unfair on poorer characters who may just be getting loans for basic needs. Stop any character with a Shylock loan from transferring gifts/property over a certain amount. That's less realistic than the last one, but arguably has similar effects without penalising the destitute. Require any high level loan to have another PC to guarantee it. Encourages player interaction, which is good. But it's an awfully big ask of any PC so could just never happen. What do people think? As a sidenote, any change this drastic will take place at the end of the Summer Campaign. Some PCs have already been lost because debts forced them to the front, so I think it's unfair not to have that apply across the board for a single death roll at least.
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Post by Adam de la Bassée on Nov 9, 2019 2:28:56 GMT
Well if transferring goods and chatels for less than value before the shylocks call ... why that seems like a job for the legal profession (which could be part of the the GM's action).
If someone tries to avoid loss of goods, the Shylocks can recover the goods from whoever bought them as "Buyer beware!".
So much RP potential!
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Post by Adam de la Bassée on Nov 9, 2019 2:29:31 GMT
In addition, this might be a good additional profession for someone with high Artistic Ability, the art of the Law.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Nov 9, 2019 3:17:41 GMT
On general principles I'd be in favour of a lawyer career path (the more career options the better) but as things stand I worry they wouldn't have enough to do.
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Post by Adam de la Bassée on Nov 9, 2019 3:26:36 GMT
On general principles I'd be in favour of a lawyer career path (the more career options the better) but as things stand I worry they wouldn't have enough to do. Well lets say that for a will to be legal it has to be done by a PC lawyer, or when purchasing property you must engage a lawyer to represent you. If you want me to shape up a skeleton for the profession I am happy to do it.
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Post by Ymbert Montgomery on Nov 9, 2019 3:30:09 GMT
On general principles I'd be in favour of a lawyer career path (the more career options the better) but as things stand I worry they wouldn't have enough to do. Well lets say that for a will to be legal it has to be done by a PC lawyer, or when purchasing property you must engage a lawyer to represent you. If you want me to shape up a skeleton for the profession I am happy to do it. That'ds be great, thanks!
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Post by gaston on Nov 9, 2019 10:41:52 GMT
So loan costs become a monthly expense like any other and the principals never have to be paid back...
I think this would make things far too easy. The Shylocks deal in short-term loans, not open-ended credit lines...
Pay interest monthly? Sure, 2% per month actually works out slightly more expensive.
Take out new loans to service old ones ? Sure, that's how things usually work.
Open-ended credit lines? No. Loans should continue to be fixed term - otherwise characters will never have any incentive to do anything to raise the cash to pay them off...
How about characters being able to take out unsecured loans of up to 800 livres (provided they are SL 8 of course). That will allow any character to (eventually) purchase a majority in the RFG, the horses to go with it and allow poorer characters to progress as normal. Taking out loans totalling more than 800 requires security for the amount over 800 - horses, coaches, houses (estates ?) at 75% of their purchase price. Realistically, most loans of over 800 livres will be in order to purchase coaches, houses, (or estates ?) or to invest in short-term 'sure things'.
Why not use Medical Skill instead, surgically taking apart opposing cases? I'm kidding - I think Legal Expertise should be thrown for separately, and perhaps only by the sons of nobles and gentlemen. (This should probably go for Medical Ability too, though artistic ability is more innate and less dependent on background).
Wills (SL of client in crowns ?) and conveyancing (3% of house price, paid by the vendor and taken to be included the 25% loss when selling a house back to the market?) will be the bread and butter of lawyers. Even the least qualified will be able to handle these adequately - in RL it's fairly easy to do both yourself.
In addition, lawyers could be engaged for trials, as both prosecutors and defence lawyers. Some rules covering this from a game similar to Liminal appear below:
Of course, once PCs get in a position to judge trials (MoS or City Governor) lawyers become pretty redundant. Maybe the trials should still be rolled for - so people know what would have happened - even the though guilt or innocence will actually be decided by the judge ?
Finally, perhaps Lawyers could get a title roll on winning their second trial and for each third trial win after that, which will allow them to seek appointments which only require a title?
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Post by Adam de la Bassée on Nov 9, 2019 18:53:21 GMT
Lawyers could also become an influence driver; a well written letter from a lawyer for an appointment could add and effective influence modifier. imagine the RP for your lawyer telling someone they should resign! Professional representation has benefits! I have started putting it together, shouldn't take too long.
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Post by Yves Eau on Nov 10, 2019 13:13:27 GMT
Well if transferring goods and chatels for less than value before the shylocks call ... why that seems like a job for the legal profession (which could be part of the the GM's action). If someone tries to avoid loss of goods, the Shylocks can recover the goods from whoever bought them as "Buyer beware!". So much RP potential! I agree with Brutus - the Shylocks as creditors should have recourse to the law to recover assets transferred. If the assets have disappeared (transferred further or spent), the original recipient could simply be disgraced as if the debts were his; this would discourage players from becoming part of any debt-avoidance scheme.
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Post by Yves Eau on Nov 10, 2019 13:32:55 GMT
So loan costs become a monthly expense like any other and the principals never have to be paid back... I think this would make things far too easy. The Shylocks deal in short-term loans, not open-ended credit lines... Pay interest monthly? Sure, 2% per month actually works out slightly more expensive. Take out new loans to service old ones ? Sure, that's how things usually work. Open-ended credit lines? No. Loans should continue to be fixed term - otherwise characters will never have any incentive to do anything to raise the cash to pay them off... The interest payments would chip away, and once you hit your limit you would be as stuck as you were originally, albeit with a smart uniform and perhaps a nice house. For example, a level 700 character with 700 debts would have to find 70 livres every six months to service the debt (or 14 per month), whilst paying his monthly costs out of whatever he had left. A poor character who had already maxed out his credit line would struggle to maintain his standing, much less improve it. The idea behind this suggestion is to provide characters with an alternative route to staying ahead of the Shylocks: rather than going regularly to the front, stay in Paris and gain social ranks in an affordable way. To sustain this, you would have to spend less than 100 livres to rise each level; that would not support an extravagant lifestyle filled with beautiful women and parties. I feel most characters would still struggle to survive a year without a trip to the front. We could have additional rules to rein in the most profligate behaviour, such as requiring assets or earnings to support debt beyond a basic level, though I am not convinced such complications are necessary. Borrowing to repay then borrowing again all in one month is another way of allowing characters to remain permanently in debt, but they hit the ceiling earlier. For example, a level 9 character with 400 debts can borrow an additional 500 to repay the 400 with interest. Having a wealthy friend support the refinancing would allow you to get back to the "interest only" situation, with even messier transactions. I prefer to keep it simple.
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